Edgar, the logic doesn't deny the existence of some creator, it denies the existence of an all powerful, all knowing, perfectly good creator, which is what the Christian god is supposed to be.

The addition of Satan does nothing. It's delegating the problem (i.e., evil), but the initial problem exists: God willfully created a flawed universe with suffering. He knew (because he is all knowing) the future, and could have created a world where that future wouldn't happen (because he is all powerful) and instead an ideal future (of no sin or suffering, because he is perfectly good) occurs, but he didn't.

The other details are fluff and simply do not address the issue about the traits of the Christian god which, given the world we live in, are contradictory. Unless the Christian god is above fundamental logic (an absurd proposition), he is impossible.

(I'd like to note claims of the supernatural can be ruled incorrect. E.g., rituals to alter the weather are impossible. It's not unreasonable to extend this to larger claims when possible. "A godlike being created the universe" is too vague and open to be disproven [at least now], but specific instances of godlike being with definitive traits can be [such as the ancient pantheons, or in this instance, the Christian god]).

edit: Elaborated on some points.

I just watched a very good video by a man I have grown to respect. It's very intelligent and quotes many scientific sources which backs up, nay, proves that there is a God. Check it out. I doubt any atheists will watch it but I encourage all Christians to watch it, you will like it, guaranteed!

I don't think you see the flaw with your argument.

Yes, the Christian god being perfectly good is fine if he wasn't all powerful. I never argued otherwise. As a result, then there could be evil, but the god would unable to have created a world without evil. But that's not the Christian god!

It doesn't matter if the Christian god chose to do it "this way." If he was perfectly good, he wouldn't have chosen to "do it this way." Unless the Christian god purposely wants people to suffer and deny him? That's radical... (And also it's not "perfectly good.")

And for the record, the idea of "choice" when discussing an all knowing and all powerful creator is rather flimsy. He created the world where people deny him and commit sinful acts. He knew, yet created it anyway. The difference between a world without evil and a world with evil are completely arbitrary to an all powerful and all knowing being, and choosing one with evil over one with good is contradictory for the supposed Christian god (i.e., he is perfectly good).

The three criteria (all knowing, all powerful, and perfectly good) cannot all be true for the Christian god (by the Christian idea of "good"). He can be all knowing and perfectly good, or all powerful and all knowing, but all three? No. It's not logically sound because it's a contradiction.

@Aaron Bolyard
what your skipping over is God gave us free will just as all in the heavens have.

There are ways to take away free will, but that is not what God wants. He wants his favorite creation to use free will to make the right choses and The Bible is a guild to help us do so.

Think about

Humans are trying to do the same thing God has already done and have the same mind set.

They want to create the perfect AI where it learns and make the right choses use a basic Guild to help it stay away from its own destruction or the destruction of its environment.

Think of Humans as the perfect AI. What good is AI if you have to program everything into it and hold its hand at ever turn?

I'm surprised you even got that far in, Dizzy. I got bored of hearing one logical fallacy after another followed by some unsupportive quotes out of the bible. I just assumed that the "proof" the presenter had promised at the beginning just wasn't going to come, ever. And it seems I was correct.

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O hai. What have you guys been up to? I've been in crunch putting together a demo for our next round of pitches

Well, Vulkan was released!

But my card (Nvidia 560 Ti) isn't supported by Nvidia for Vulkan...

It is rather disappointing, I suppose. Definite proof of evil right there.

This 700+ line example to draw a triangle is something I will not experience for some time.

All animals have a comprehension of "good" and "bad". An abundant food source is good. A predator is bad. These things are hard-wired into most animals, probably having been either inherited from a common ancestor or naturally evolving in parallel. Or perhaps being obvious to a sufficiently conscious mind.

In any case, "good" and "evil" are a different matter. If you were to ask a child or even an adult not exposed to Christianity if something is sinful would they answer the same as the Bible? I mean, if they did, who would need the Bible to tell them? Nobody. A funny anecdote is Christians that believe that atheists are without morality because they don't believe in the Bible.

"Evil" is generally synonymous with "bad for my survival". The thing is, we're allowed to do things that are bad for everybody else's survival i.e., kill them (in particular, animals for food, but according to the Bible also other tribes/ethnicities). It's easy to understand how a primitive mind would define evil in these terms. It's difficult to accept that as reasonable these days.

Insert: A good example might be slavery. Do people naturally understand that slavery is evil? Obviously not or we wouldn't have such a long and disgraceful history of it. Do children naturally know that slavery is evil? I'd say no, though if you were to test it you may have a hard time finding one that wasn't "tainted" already by things they've been taught or observed. You certainly couldn't test a child that attends any kind of church or religious teachings. Would an adult member of a primitive native tribe in Africa that has been sheltered from the developed world think slavery was evil? I don't know, but I suspect not.

Alas, even the Bible seems to tell us that slavery is generally OK, as long as you enslave the right demographics.^[1] How many Christians support slavery? Raise your hand. God apparently does.

In the grand scheme of things, it's easy to see that it doesn't really matter to the universe when an animal is slaughtered or even a human is raped or murdered. The universe keeps moving forward. Long after all the life on this planet has passed the universe will continue going. I see no actual "evil" on a universal scale. It's up to us as intelligent beings to define evil to be what we consider to be universally unpleasant, especially when it's threatening to our very survival or the survival of others. That said, we wouldn't necessarily consider it evil for a starving bear to kill and eat a man unprovoked. That's natural. It's no different than a starving man killing and eating a bear. Of course, men don't need to be starving to kill a bear. They don't even need to be hungry. Most humans don't even consider that wrong (I generally would in this particular space-time, but I wouldn't necessarily have in others).

That is a meaningless question. If he has that right then who gave him that right? If nobody had to give him that right then why does somebody need to give me rights? Why can't I just assume them too? In other words, undefined. In particular, because there is no God.

That's just cult speak. Nothing meaningful in that. Human brains are far from perfect. Unfortunately, the more we believe things the more convinced we become that they're correct even without evidence. "Faith" is precisely the perfect formula for the wrong conclusion. The only hope you have of arriving at the correct conclusion is skepticism and careful, rational thought. Well, the only real hope you have is scientific testing, but where that is impossible you're left with skepticism and careful, rational thought (and doubts about your conclusions).

See above. Your mind is weak and is convincing itself of a delusion because you're unwilling to truly question it. I am very familiar with this way of thinking because I used to be like that myself (when I was 8). That is not an open mind. Anybody can say that their mind is open. Humorously, religious believers often assert that their minds are open and that everybody else's mind is closed. I'd have to say that this is another weakness of the human brain to fail to see the flaw in their own reasoning.

What does that even mean? That's a ridiculous thought. Is Jesus a conscious mind that chooses one by one whether or not to save somebody? Isn't everybody saved implicitly? What about God? Couldn't God just say, "Nah, fuck you Jesus, bambams is cool; he's in!?"

We've already tried. You seem incapable of comprehending that using the Bible to support the validity of the Bible is a confirmation bias. There is no logical reasoning behind your beliefs. There are countless theists that acknowledge it, and for good reason. This leaves you as the weakest link trying to convince rational human beings that there is. Especially after countless debates and countless posts. Who are you really trying to convince, us or yourself?

You don't need to read a textbook to learn math or science. Somebody could explain it to you, and explain experiments to verify it, and you could prove it to yourself through testing. This has already been pointed out in this thread at least once.

There's certainly the possibility that you could arrive at a different answer and challenge the knowledge of the rest of the world and that would be welcome. You'd have to be able to prove your results though so that other people could confirm them. Do that and you'd change everybody's minds that was willing to listen (everybody worth a damn).

There's also the possibility that you could be wrong. The tools are there for you to use. You can do so at you discretion. The difference is, unlike your religion, the math and science can actually be proven to be correct (or, it stands to reason, and is only as relied upon as the logic is until we can prove otherwise). Math and science are essentially both open to revision as necessary. That's something that you can never boast about your religious beliefs.

I will briefly reply to a few things before I go to bed.

There's a lot more I want to reply to, but I simply don't have time to repudiate all the insane crap you guys are spouting.

Good and evil are easily discernible by anyone with half a heart. When one kid takes away another kids toy and he cries, the kid who took it away feels guilt and gives it back, because he knows he did wrong. Or he keeps the toy choosing greed and malice and chooses to ignore his conscience. People have a conscience to tell them when something is right or wrong. That some people choose to ignore it doesn't mean they don't know any better.

Yes, people naturally understand slavery is evil. See above. They are tempted by their own greed and desire to force their will upon others. It is a conscious choice.

God made rules for slaves for their well being. Not because he thought people should be slaves. Slaves were to be set free in the 7th year, unless they wanted to remain under their masters (because they were being taken care of). Also, God does not explicitly endorse slavery. He brought the Israelites out of Egypt precisely because they had been in bondage. He redeemed His people and set them free. He performed miracles for them, and led them through the Red Sea, and gave them manna and water from the rock. He gave them His Laws (for their well being) and when they broke them he punished them. Should a Father not punish his children when they do wrong? What would it teach them not to punish evil?

If you seek God, you will find Him.

God has the right to punish his children because He is their Father. It is the right of a Father to choose how to treat his own children. Would you deny that? You're not making any sense. There are certain rights that most people can all agree that everyone has as living beings, whether they observe them or not. You do have rights. You're exercising one right now, in denying God and choosing not to believe in what He says. That's your right. And God gave it to you. If you really want to deny God, go right ahead. See how far it gets you. See how many blessings he chooses to give you when you won't even acknowledge his existence. Why should he bless and give anything further to someone who shows zero gratitude for what they've been given already?

You're mistaken. I've already questioned my beliefs, and been proven wrong about them. There was a time when I thought I had gotten to be where I was simply on my own, disregarding the blessings of God. And so He let me fall away, until I realized that true blessings come from Him. And then He returned them to me. My life has only improved since I've started believing in God. You can call it a coincidence if you like, but I know it's not. Can I scientifically prove it? No, but I still choose to believe it anyway, because he's shown me He's really there, and that He really cares. See above. "If you seek Me ye shall find Me." Believe it or not, I don't really care.

Yes, Jesus is a conscious entity. He is the living Son of God. He chooses whether to reward or punish people based on their works. Do good and be blessed. Do evil and be punished. Pretty simple really. And Jesus obey's God, because He is His Father. If you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father. The Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father. He does the works of His Father, because he is an obedient, loving Son.

Let me ask you both a question. Where would you two be without the collected knowledge of the ages behind you? That's what textbooks are, collected knowledge. Just how long did it take men to invent electricity anyway? Oh, somewhere around 10,000 years since the dawn of the Homosapiens. And where did you get your knowledge of electricity from? From a book. From the collected knowledge of the ages. That's what the Bible is, the collected knowledge of God and His prophets throughout the ages. If you hadn't been shown electricity, there is nearly zero chance you would have invented it by yourself. We are where we are today because of the collected knowledge of the ages. Where would man be without libraries? Nowhere.

You're a hypocrite. The exact same thing goes for you. If you lost all your textbooks you would be back in a cave with the cavemen shivering your ass off wondering where your next meal would be coming from. Just as scientific knowledge could be rebuilt through experimentation, so could the knowledge of God be rebuilt through His prophets. But the Bible's not going to be lost, because God gave it to us for our knowledge. He wants us to have His knowledge. He wants us to have wisdom. Destroy this temple, and I will rebuild it in three days. See if you can beat that.

Aaron, you're right of course. Just spend your time doing more of that cool stuff instead of trying to save these people from their own personal Stockholm syndromes

I coded a program that governs a 3D space (i.e. Universe) via light (in lieu of gravity) and time and initialized it (i.e. Big Bang) with a series of objects at varying degrees of light emission. Time causes the light to decay, but at various rates set by the initialization that creates various colors. The lights blend and have some degree of impact to all other light-objects.

The program attempts to create code to move (remember, no gravity in this system) the objects in ideal positions to maximize the light presented. When objects are moved in a way that creates bright white light, the code can spawn a new object inheriting its properties as a combination from the parent light-objects used to make it. The program compiles its code and runs it on a separate thread to ensure it doesn't crash before merging the code in.

I fast forwarded this system to see a future result. Lo and behold, I found an active pixel that served multiple light-objects where they had learned how to communicate with each other. Reading their conversations, I came across something interesting:

"Absolute proof that ONEWING EXIST (Pretty Cool)".

The discussion was very...colorful. I shut the program down because it was using too many resources on my machine.

I was about to answer you, until I read that. If you want answers, try showing some respect and be civilized, if that is at all possible with you.

In the meantime, for my fellow believers (I don't expect any atheists to watch this or give it any chance at all). You may just like this. It is a lecture given by a former NASA engineer on evidence from our solar system that it is not that old. He has other videos as well that are worth watching. There's quite a bit that you are not told on those TV specials that tell you how the solar system came to be, and he covers all the problems and what you are not told in this. It's quite good. No preaching in it at all. Just the facts.

What a cop out. You're just being chicken because you know what I am saying made sense and you can't refute it properly.

The crap I was speaking of was mostly coming from bamccaig. And you really are overly sensitive, aren't you? It IS hypocritical of you to say that if the Bible disappeared Christianity couldn't survive if you don't also apply it to your own situation, which is what I showed that you did not do.

And no Christianity wouldn't be lost without the Bible. The main principle of Christianity is to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. Calling you a hypocrite may not have been very kind, but at the same time it was not inaccurate of me to say so.

There's nothing wrong with the laws of God. They are made for people's good. But God also knows that his people will break them, whether intentionally or not. That is why God brought about a new covenant, based on grace, and not on the law, because he knew that the law gave power to sin. He took away the power of death (sin) through the reconciliation of Christ and grace.