While I can see some bits of it that (could) make sense, on the whole, that seems to further obfuscate things instead of clearing them up.
One thing that strikes me: God at war? With whom? Satan? Mammon in the theater of our minds?
I can only say that "Christians as soldiers" seems quite contrary to what I know about Christianity.

Well, Neil, surprisingly we seem to have found some common ground. I'm beginning to find your perspective interesting, so I'd like to kindly ask you to answer my questions below.

Now, about women and homosexuals:
1) If that golden rule applies AND is clearly classified by Jesus himself (!) as most important AND as essence of commandments and prophets, how can someone (= Paulus) bar women from speaking? Doesn't seem to go together well in my book.
2) I don't have time to reread, but IIRC Jesus surprised his disciples at least once by talking to people who were not commonly socially accepted. Isn't that open-heartedness that could/should inspire?

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In other words, if we live our lives in ways that God doesn't approve of we're going to be tortured for all eternity in a lake of fire, but if you live your life in ways that God doesn't approve of he'll understand and forgive you and you'll be rewarded with eternity in paradise?

You're absolutely right, and I was wrong. I am human and that is part of my own weaknesses. I am working on that aspect, but it is not easy. Being bullied on a daily basis in school as a child, I grew up and vowed never to take it again, so I tend to strike back. I am working on that though. Well, except when it comes to my wife, if anyone hurts her or makes her cry, I will lose it, Christian or no and they will be in a whole lot of pain. Actually, I thought I was quite controlled when I threw my doctor across the room for making my wife cry. And the police he phoned were partially in agreement with me, given how cold he was and the weird irony that the cop that showed up had the same medical condition my wife had that our doctor wouldn't do anything about, but that's a life story. Suffice it to say, she ended up getting help once I made it known how serious I was about not liking her crying.

This is not something I used to do a lot, but believe it or not, I have tried harder to do this in the past couple years. It is another thing that is aweful hard to do, but I am starting to see why. And I would not wish any harm on anyone here, whether we agree or not. I DO hope people someday see the truth and change, given what I know is coming, I do not wish that on anyone. So I am getting there. Not easy and I am human, I don't claim to be perfect, not by a long shot. The important thing is to try, and when you mess up, get back up, pray for forgiveness (God is "quick to forgive and slow to anger", something you may not think given how some churches preach Him) and try not to make the same mistakes twice. I have a long way to go.

Actually, I do quite well with that! I struggle to make ends meet, but my wife and I have often commented that through all the hard times we have been through, we have always had a roof over our head, clothes on our back and have always been fed. I am not wealthy by a long shot, I live month to month. But I never worry. I could give examples where I feel God has helped me (I know, atheists will see coincidences etc). I needed more pants, my old ones all wearing out, as I said, I am NOT wealthy and can barely even afford those. Plus my size can be large (I am around 6'0" tall, size 15 feet etc), but when I went to the store to find something recently, I found two pairs of pants that were exactly my size (the only two there) and they just happened to be on sale for $7 each, even the teller couldn't believe the price. Same with shoes... I went looking for the hard to find size 15s, there was only ONE PAIR available in the store my size... and they were on sale. Coincidence? Perhaps, but I prefer to believe differently. When in need, I always seem to get something. We were short on food plus at the time we had a cat last year who needed to be put down... each time we ran short on money, suddenly I got a donation for my Deluxe Pacman game. When we needed to get out cat put down, we got a $1250 donation for my game (which blew me away!) that helped in a multitude of ways. So again, coincidence? Perhaps, I don't think so. My cellulitis flare up, normally a hospital visit and lots of meds for a week or two, I prayed about it and it cleared up overnight. I could go on and on for just the past year, but the more I have faith and trust in God to provide, the more He seems to do for me, so... no amount of laughter or scoffing in here will deter me, especially after I was extremely stressed and prayed and literally felt a wave of calm come over me the instant I got done praying like I have never felt in my life, that was the pinnacle for me. Again, coincidence? Sorry, I know where that came from, and you cannot understand it unless you felt it... literally. Anyhow... that should answer that question.

Do to others what you would have them do to you. Of course. I don't steal from others, I try and help when I can. I rarely pass by a beggar on the street without helping in some way (rarely with money, but I will usually go buy food and come back, or I will ask what they need). As I already stated, if someone pisses me off, this can be harder to stick to, but I am working on it. I stopped lying totally a few decades ago, it's hard to believe, but I do not lie to anyone for any reason. Of course, doesn't mean I have to spill the beans, not lying doesn't mean you are given a truth syrum and have to answer everyone's questions. I have met people that think that though. I honestly can't think of any area where I have done something to someone else I wouldn't want done or expect done to myself under the same circumstances.

Read the story again. Jesus met with them in his home, not in a church group setting. And He was trying to save them, to get them to repent and change. He wasn't accepting them as they were. He called them sinners, they were the ones who needed him the most. Now this can be difficult to understand, and the reason why is that most modern churches feel that their church buildings are places to invite sinners in to save them. But in the bible, when a church met on the Sabbath to worship God, those that met were all expected to be people who have repented and stopped sinning and all are wishing to obey God. God loves all of us, but we all have our roles. The reasons why women are not allowed to speak IN THE CHURCH (and only in the church) or have authority over men is due to the fact that it was women who first sinned. So it was part of the curse God places on them, they would be subservient to their husbands, but this doesn't mean a husband can be a ruthless, cruel dictator over them. There are rules about that. And God allows women to teach other women and children outside of the church. There have been some very famous prophetesses that prophesied and taught. But I guarantee you that they never disobeyed God and spoke out in the church or disobeyed their husband, and God always blessed them for it, so their lives were generally happier and richer for it. This is a difficult concept to understand in this modern age of feminism and absolute rebellion. Homosexuality should be a no brainer, it's not the way God designed us to be. Human sexuality is supposed to take place within marriage (by the way, contrary to the teachings of the Roman Catholics, sex is NOT a sin, when done right). There are even instructions in the bible for married couples to "come together often to avoid temptation", and that means sex. Which makes sense, a married couple who have sex often, will be less likely to be tempted, but how many husband end up cheating because their wife refuses sex for them (or vice versa, goes both ways equally). And of course, once married with a stable, proper reliationship, you eventually, if all the plumbing works, have children. They grow up in a home with both parents and are happier and healthier for it. Believe me, I know about the problems with a single parent family with no father, I grew up in one. There is nothing normal or natural about men and men sleeping together or women with women (and the bible does mention women with women too). I don't see how anyone could not understand that, whether you believe in God or are an atheist, how is it people cannot see that is not natural I don't know. There are a few examples of people in the church that used to be that way that changed, and the bible mentions them as well. That would be a good reason why Jesus spoke to them. But there is no way t hey could have been allowed into a church meeting of any sort. There were some that were expelled from churches you read about in Acts until they stopped sinning (a case of incest if I recall), and they ended up stopping that and were welcomed back in later on. I won't quote the verses unless asked as I get enough flak for quoting the bible in here as it is.

My main point is, IF there is a God, and IF the bible is His word, than we need to obey it whether you agree with it or not, and to disagree with it is to disagree with God, not a healthy attitude to have. But you're coming at this as an atheist who does not believe and wondering how I can take this fairy tale book literally. Well, if I didn't believe in God, I couldn't! But if I believe in God, and believe this is His word, than you're damn right I take it literally and I will do my best to obey it (and fuck up often times, because I am not perfect, not by a long shot). But one can show many examples that the bible is accurate and true. Jesus certain existed and was executed, all historians worth their sale understand that because there is evidence outside of the bible that confirms it. Especially from the Roman senator/historian Tacitus who hated Christians. He wrote about them and Jesus and His execution by Pilot. hostile witnesses like that are the best examples. I have heard from some great historians on the subject, one was an agnostic historian who stated out of the thousands of historians he knew, not one didn't think that Jesus existed, they all know he did, based on the evidence. Whether you think he was the son of God is your own business.

Anyhow... enough of my novel. so much for not replying in here again, ... but you were polite enough and respectful in how you asked your questions, so I felt a response was due.

Edit: okay, I will reply to this one Bam...

Nope! Absolutely NOT! But I am not a Sunday "Christian". I feel the doctrine of burning in hell forever is an evil and blasphemous one in the extreme and doesn't show God as merciful and loving AT ALL. There is an end time lake of fire, reserved for the wicked, I do believe that because that is what the bible actually says. But you won't burn "forever" in it, you will be physical as you are now, and you will be thrown into it and destroyed forever. Eternal life is given to believers who obey, not to the wicked. And in order to burn forever, one would have to have eternal life. In revelation it is called the second death, from which there is no return. Death... is death. I don't know what about the word "death" Sunday keeping Christians don't understand. Also, we don't go to heaven at any time either, that's another false doctrine, read John 3:13 sometime, see what Jesus said. I bet you never hear that verse in a Sunday church. When we die, we are dead, and we stay dead until Jesus returns and resurrects the dead. The dead... are dead. Everyone that has ever died, except Jesus, is still dead and unconscious. According to your bible anyhow. There is a reward for the obedient though and why not?! You expect to be rewarded for mocking God, laughing at Him and disobeying Him? Did your parents reward you when you didn't do what you were told?! Perhaps this is how it is done in modern society, we reward people no matter if they deserve it or not, but God is not only merciful and loving, but He is also just. He wouldn't be very just if he rewarded the wicked disobedient with the same reward as those who obeyed him now would he?! Wouldn't make any sort of sense, why bother obeying in that case?

Have a good one.

The discussion seems to be very much about proof this and proof that. Some believers think the OP video included absolute proof that God exists. Some atheists say that they don't believe until there is proof.

How long are you going to keep up the debate about scientific proof? Is that particular debate very important to any of you? Or is it just fun for an atheist to state that they will start believing, as soon as someone has the proof? Are there believers that actually believe that there will be a future, where the existence of God has finally been prooved scientifically?

Such future will never happen. That is not the future any Christian should look forward to. Instead, build the Church on what you have. Build a better tomorrow. Love thy neighbour, no matter if he's a Christian or not, black or white, gay or straight. All this is possible following what Jesus taught, and believing in God. All this is possible, even for all of you not believing in God.

If you still hang up on the proof thing, I'd like to add my point of view. The day someone has real scientific evidence of the existence of God, I'll stop believing in God.

I didn't tell the whole story there, and I do not regret what I did.

Here's the whole story, which I am certain you will find more fault with, but, so be it.

My wife had back problems, severe back problems, so bad that she was laying in bed all day long, almost 24 hours a day, not able to get up for long due to the pain. I was serving her meals in bed etc. That's how bad it was.

We made an appointment with our family doctor to get something done about it. When we went there and described how bad it was to him, he wouldn't do a thing. Nothing, he wouldn't prescribe her pain medications, he wouldn't send her to a specialist... NOTHING! At the prospect of being in constant pain with no end in sight and no help, my wife broke down crying. At that point I turned to him and said: "You bastard, I should break your back so you can feel what she goes through!" and then I threw him across the room! They called the police and one of the officers that came just happened to have the SAME back problem my wife did! And when I told him the doctor wasn't going to do a thing, the officer was surprised. I was never charged, but I dropped him as my doctor and didn't bother with doctors again for over 10 years (I still can't stand them). BUT, the doctor agreed to send her to a back specialist and she ended up getting surgery she needed which helped a lot.

So he got what he deserved, I was fully justified, and it helped get her the help she needed. He should be thankful I didn't actually break his back like I wanted to. I have a great deal of self control, EXCEPT when it comes to my wife, hurt her in any way, and you are toast. Guaranteed. I'll get very unchristian on your ass, and I won't be sorry I did it. That is my role as her husband. She's a tiny person compared to me, 5'0" tall and about 110lbs, so I am very protective of her.

One thing about me personally that may not come across here, is that in person, I don't preach to anyone. Have a HUGE sense of humour and love to sit down and have a few drinks with friends. It takes a lot to get me angry, I rarely get angry (except about my wife as stated). I'm a very intellectual kind of person, spend my time just learning, either studying my bible, studying math (which I was doing all yesterday), reading about the history of each letter of the alphabet (fascinating!), about the history of our calender, space... you name it. I built my own computer and programmed them since the 80s. It's difficult to know someone based on text in here.

-------

About God though. I noticed there were two opinions coming out here. One where people think God is cruel for punishing people for breaking his laws, and one where people ask "if God exists, why does He allow evil". These are interesting contrasts when you think about it. Lets examine them closer...

There are three ways God could be...

1) Allows all evil and never punished for them.
2) Doesn't allow any evil and forces you to do His will.
3) Allows you total freedom, but punishes for disobedience.

For the first one, lets say God allowed all evil, disobedience and never punished for it. How would you feel come judgement day (actually, there would be no judgement day, we would all get eternal life in paradise), if in this life I entered your home, murdered you and your family and stole everything you had, then when Jesus returned, and I was resurrected, I got the same reward as you did? Sound fair? You would hate God at that point for rewarding me and not punishing me, guaranteed, to state otherwise would be a blatant lie.

What if God did as some say He should, if He exists and not allow any evil. What if God FORCED you to do His will and didn't allow you any freedoms? You would hate him for that guaranteed. Also, what would you learn? How would you know why God has the laws He does?

The whole reason why God allows total freedom, but with punishments for disobedience and rewards for going out of your way to obey Him is because of freedoms. You are allowed to choose, and if you try hard to obey Him, you deserve rewards. If you disobey him than there are consequences, as there should be. But the main reason for all of this is so that people can understand why it is that God has these laws, and we will soon find out when mankind enters into the final war in the years to come, WW3 and we almost wipe ourselves out of existence. At that point Jesus will return and put a stop to the madness.

I don't know what you think a God should be like, if He exists, but anything like how He is now, would cause even greater resentment against Him for allowing evil without punishment or disallowing freedom and forcing His will on you.

I'm no more an atheist. I'm now a Bolyardist.

Thank you very much, Neil! I didn't expect such a thorough elaboration. You seem to be very consequent in your beliefs, I like that. (I suspected you were just some troll throwing around bible verses to cover up his sins ^^).

I'm not an atheist, though, rather an agnosticist. I think I can (partly) agree with what Johan said. Metaphysical claims and discussions usually rather bore me, I think the whole thing is about human behavior and ... well beliefs, or rather believing as such.
I especially like this statement:

Knowledge is more or less a dead thing. When you've proven something, it's settled, you're finished with it. In contrast to that, believing in something is what keeps you going (for example, that's usually why people set out to proof something in the first place^^). Now, I think, for human-behavior issues, God should best thought of as something without properties at all. Not in a sense that it/He has no properties, but rather in a sense that our ability is not sufficient. When you attribute properties, in a way, you partly kill it/Him, as you transfer it from the belief to the knowledge zone. Maybe, in a way, that's what the burning bush that isn't consumed by the fire (paradox) should express. I think there are more passages in the Bible that would support such a view (i.e. the name isn't used/forbidden, the commandments before the one about the sabbath (just looked it up, everyone counts them differently)).
Note that the church has developed a system of thought (scholasticism) that is completely contrary to that (this, too, has its own merits).

So, in a way, I am probably religious, but I do have my problems with some of the stuff in the Bible. Some parts are full of wisdom and I even enjoy the language, but others (e.g. Paulus, who has been very important for the development of the church), I rather dislike.
The bible is by no means a coherent text and we know historically that it was compiled by humans, so I think I can very well pick what parts I like. ^^
So you see, to mock the "certaintists" (of both sides) is a religious act for me ^^ - I'd also mock the atheists, but they usually have arguments that are easier on the intellect.

I'll stop discussion here, I'll just mention that I personally don't think believing in God should be about obedience, a word that you use rather frequently (to me, this appears like the projection of a human relationship which is probably inadequate).
Thank you again, Neil.

Haha that one is good ^^

The funny thing is that this is the option that most closely matches with reality. Except that there is no God. There is no judgment day and no punishment after death. At least, I've seen zero evidence or even logical reasoning for it. And that means that evil people really are never punished (unless we punish them, but even so it's a very fine line to not be evil ourselves, and odds are people that commit evil acts are incapable of feeling the kinds of pain the rest of us feel).

I believe Jesus would tell you to forgive this person. He doesn't say forgive him because God will punish him later. He says forgive him. Period. This is actually very wise advise because the hatred would only consume you. It would only hurt you. It wouldn't hurt the murderer (unless you happened to use the hate to retaliate, but violence typically multiplies so there's no guarantee it would end there).

My girlfriend and I had supper with my girlfriend's great aunt today. She's a Catholic nun. She gave some great advise regarding some wrongs that were done. Just forget about it. The "guilty" party has already forgotten about it. It doesn't cross their mind anymore. You can't do anything to make them upset about it and fretting over it is only going to hurt you.

You forget that people live their lives on the planet without really being given a fair shot at life. It's easy from Suburbia to preach about doing good, etc., but most people committing horrible acts do so because they're desperate and that's the best that they know how to do. They need our help and support. It's not coincidental that crime in impoverished communities is significantly higher than anywhere else.

Should these people be punished for the wrongs that they commit? Should they be excluded from the hypothetical reward of afterlife? I don't think so. Even truly evil people should probably be forgiven. There's evidence now that they're born with brain defects that influences the way they think. They literally cannot rationalize not being evil. The way their minds work being "good" doesn't make sense. Being programmers we should be able to understand quite easily how little it takes for a program to malfunction. The circuits are broken in their brain.

It's understandable for a primitive culture that believed that our minds are magical to devise Gods to explain it away and give themselves a sense of justice for it all. We don't have to be primitive anymore. We can comprehend that there's no reason for it all, and the people committing evil acts are probably in need of help themselves. We can try to them help cope with their condition or environment (and better yet, to improve their environment), and we can find better ways to cope ourselves.

I didn't read for a long time, but I have an uncomfortable question:

Let's say that God exists. Since He is the God of Christians, Muslims and Jews, just with different names, which one of the three is the true religion? All them, or just one? Why?

@bamccaig: Good one. Ra bless you!

I don't have any god. You're all perverted.