There will always be more trees than Walmarts. But maybe not Starbucks.

I meant after the inevitable civil war and ultimate collapse of Western civilization.

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Keep this thread alive or else.

This thread should be aborted. Babies should not.

X-D

And don't get raped.

Abortion is unreasonable in every situation except those where the mother's life is in danger or she was raped as MiguelFire liked to point out.

If you don't have the authority to control what others do, what gives you the right to terminate a perfectly healthy pregnancy? Babies have bodies too, who is looking out for them? Nobody except us pro lifers.

Yes you heard that right. I used to be fully pro choice, but I am now pro life in every reasonable situation. NiteHackr and raynebc would be proud that I changed my mind on this.

Have you ever seen what happens during an abortion? They reach inside the woman with gripping tongs and tear the baby apart piece by piece until they've removed it all. How would you like to be ripped limb from limb and thrown away? That's what you're suggesting, and it is evil.

Abortion has no place in an honorable society.

Recreational sex is like recreational drugs. Sure it's fun, but just wait until your responsibilities come back around. Jerking off is free. Porn is free. Babies are not.

I fully support all of the things you just mentioned, but now consider myself pro life. I am a Democrat as well, which means I support things like inexpensive health care, immigration with humanity, and respect for all life. Don't lump me in with the "pro lifers" who are only for criminalizing abortion.

I don't believe abortion should be criminalized, but neither do I believe it should be supported. Life should be respected and cared for at all ages and stages of life.

I mean seriously, have you ever seen a video of an abortion? If you haven't, you should watch one. Watch them tear apart a human being. It might change your mind if you think abortion is somehow okay.

The only reason people think abortion is okay is because they've dehumanized the lives of unborn babies. They have a right to life, however hard, as surely as you or I do. Aborting babies is selfish and irresponsible. People need to be held accountable for the decisions that they make.

If a woman is healthy, and she has a baby inside her which is also healthy, there is absolutely no excuse to abort the baby. Sorry you weren't prepared for it, but you still have to take responsibility for the life inside you.

Grow up. If you can carry a baby, you're a woman. If you can fertilize an egg, you're a man. If you can do both, you're a hermaphrodite. If you can't do either, you're asexual. Stop blurring sexes for the sake of your personal comfort.

EDIT
Stop twisting around the natural definition of sex, when you're clearly referring to gender. I should be able to refer to someone either as their biological sex, or their personal gender, and not be punished for either. This whole PC shit is just too much.

Are you suggesting that children, even infants, should be free to do whatever they want and parents should have no control over them? Surely not. And so your point is invalid. Children are already at the mercy of their parents. That's true whether you're talking abortion, nurture and discipline strategies, or abuse. We don't even really have a solution for abusive parents. The best we can do is put the children into the care of others, but the rate of abuse in these conditions is even higher than among parents!

I don't think those are the people that you should be trying to please. I see this as a regression.

I've heard the birth part isn't so pretty itself. Neither is the birth canal 15% (or more) of the time^[1]. Just because something is "gross" or unpleasant doesn't mean that it's morally wrong.

There's no debate among professionals. Doctors are generally on-board for abortions, except for a tiny minority that are too attached to their religious beliefs and I wouldn't want them treating me. There are risks, but pregnancy carries its share of risks too. They're well enough controlled to be a non-issue. Most importantly, it doesn't hurt anyone other than those involved. Mostly the mother, but maybe also the father, and maybe close friends/family if you want to be overly touchy-feely. The fetus is not developed enough to feel anything. I know I seemed to "come online" around 2 years old. That's around my first memories, ever. Meaning even when I was super young I could not remember anything before then. And we're talking about ending life before the fetus is ever even birthed. Far from being able to survive on its own. Pain is not evil. Pain is necessary. I promise you if the fetus is even capable of feeling pain it pales in comparison to the pain it will likely endure in life.

They're not tearing a baby apart. They're tearing a fetus apart. If we could Star Trek style transport it out and keep it alive you wouldn't even recognize it as human yet. It depends on when the abortion occurs. Obviously the sooner it's done the less developed the fetus will be.

You can be assured that the fetus isn't a "person" that feels its body being ripped apart. The baby wouldn't even have a conscious mind to process it with. Even if it was felt it would just be signals that the brain wouldn't even understand beyond instinct. It's hard to imagine how an early fetus could suffer any more than a chicken or a fly, which we slaughter horrendously on a routine basis for luxurious food or just pure convenience.

You're also operating under the assumption that if not aborted that fetus is going to arrive to a family with the means to love and care for it. Often when abortion is on the table what otherwise awaits the child if carried to term is extreme poverty, repeated neglect and abuse, and essentially slavery once they're old enough to "get a fucking job, you bum". Odds of being stuck in a dead end minimum wage job are high, odds of depending on drugs to ease the horrors of the life they've been forced into are high, and therefore odds of incarceration are also high. One in a million might get lucky and climb the socio-economic ladder. The other 999,999 are just going to suffer a shitty existence worse than I can relate to (which is saying something I think).

There's nothing wrong with bringing children into the world in those circumstances. Life isn't always fair. Sometimes life is tough. And some people still think it's worth enduring. Others, on the other hand, beg for death. They wish they were never born. If we lived in a healthy society that took care of every one then you might have a point. In reality, "pro-lifers" only really care about the baby until it's born. Then it's not their problem anymore, and you won't find too many making sacrifices to provide those other people's children with better lives. It's easy to claim righteousness. Earning it is a lot more trouble.

When we live in an honorable society we can revisit the laws then.

Porn is actually considered generally unhealthy. I would bet that recreational sex is considered healthier than masturbation is. Masturbation is better than nothing when options are limited, but I don't think I need to explain to anyone here that it's a poor substitute for the real thing. It sort of misses the point entirely. There's no emotional level/connection, which really misses the point. Still it satisfies the biological need for some hours, but it still leaves you empty. And you become desensitized to porn over time, which requires more extreme forms to continue working. I've found that it also allows your imagination to get lazy. The technology of today still pales in comparison to what your brain can do. Porn has its limited place and should remain legal, but it's certainly no argument for prohibiting recreational sex, and by extension no argument for prohibiting abortion.

Append:

It shouldn't need saying, but I'll say it anyway. I'm not suggesting that abortion is an appropriate birth control strategy. It's risky. It's serious. It is a last resort for people that conclude that having the baby is a worse outcome than aborting the baby, which is not the default. I don't think anybody is advocating for routine abortions. They're always going to be an exception, at least until technology gets to Star Trek levels. For the people that need an abortion though they really need it. And think about it, if they really don't, but choose it anyway, do you think they would make good parents?

Re: adoption. There are countless children in state care all over the world with nobody willing to adopt them. Few people opt for adoption over a natural birth, and few are willing to make sacrifices to care for extra people. On top of that, there is an increased risk that foster or adoptive parents will be abusive. It's certainly a fine option, but there's no reason to believe it's a better outcome than a quick death prior to consciousness.

There's more than two genders.

There's more resistance during rape so I doubt it would be considered physically healthy for either sex physically, but certainly not for the victim (whatever sex/hormone). Obviously the victim will suffer mentally, and likely physically as well. It might physically be healthy for the perpetrator, but I think that it would be mentally harmful regardless. Then again, I guess if you're crazy to begin with then no harm done?

Append:

I had started writing up a lengthy response to Edgar, but decided to axe it. It was getting wordy and disorganized. Wordy I like. Disorganized I do not. My mental state is weird this year. I'm super distracted. Anyway, point being that I don't believe in ridiculous religious fairytales, and science believes fetuses can't realistically experience pain until the third trimester. So the whole "the poor baby!" argument is out the window, at least as far as human knowledge goes. It's fair for you to say that you still believe that fetuses feel pain. You can believe in imaginary wizards in the sky, so we have to give you this other thing. But just because you believe it doesn't mean that you can dictate what other people do.

Your mind is very sheltered if you think that all children born are better off than if they weren't born. I admire your innocence and ignorance, but that's just simply not true. Abortion is an extreme solution. It's fucking surgery. That's never to be taken lightly. That said, nobody is suggesting using abortion as birth control. Any couple stupid enough to do this would quickly change their mind after their first experience. It's not a realistic concern. The people that are seeking abortions have good reasons for doing so. Ultimately it's their DNA, and we have no reason to conclude that fetuses deserve "rights", so I think that it's most reasonable to let others be free to do as they please and you mind your own business.

Personally, I'm finally coming to terms with having kids of my own. I don't think that I'll make a perfect father, but hopefully if we do get pregnant I am able to handle whatever additional pressures are put on me. My primary concern is that my parents are getting older, and I want for my kids to get to meet their grandparents and spend lots of time while they can. I was fortunate that my parents had me 10 years earlier so I had that extra time with my grandparents. My grandparents also lived to a ripe age, which I'm concerned that my parents might not be able to match. And while I may not be a very good role model some of the time, my parents are great most of the time.

My wife on the other hand is just baby crazy, as is typical for women her age. The clock is ticking, and it's starting to wind down so we don't have many more years before the risks start to increase for mother and child. Abortion isn't something I'm likely to need in the immediate future, but I still want it to be available for the people that might still require it.

I agree with this completely.

That said, in this political climate it needs to be stated that men have very few rights when it comes to reproduction, and that's unjust. The laws were written overly favoring women trying to protect them and the result is that men have been victimized instead.

I do not believe that a man should be forced to provide for a child unless he opts into it. Meaning whenever a child is born both parents have to opt-in, and if neither does the baby is put up for adoption (if too much strain is put on the foster care system then I think it reasonable to apply a penalty for rejecting a child after birth instead of aborting when it was reasonable). If only one of the parents wants the child then they're taking the responsibility on themselves to provide for it. Meaning no child support. I think that we should encourage couples to raise children, not single parents of either gender, and so we need to abolish the laws that empower individuals to coerce money from co-parents. That was never the intended purpose of those laws, or if it was then those laws were always unjust.

I also think that marriage should not be taken lightly, and divorce should not be so rewarding for women. I see no reason why women should be supported by husbands after divorce, particularly divorce that the woman initiated without reasonable cause, such as abuse or neglect.

I personally would have no problem if a woman that I impregnated aborted the child against my will. Pregnancy carries its own risks, and there are many reasons she might not wish to have a child with you, even after consenting to recreational sex or even agreeing to do so. I might well be upset if we had planned the baby, or if we had agreed upon it once it occurred and after months of preparations she changed her mind, but regardless I still think she has the right to abort because it's her body. Though perhaps there should be legal ramifications in that case (e.g., compensate for wasted time/money already invested).

I'm basically in favor of both sexes having complete control of their participation in the bearing of children. I think that this will protect victims from being trapped, and will also encourage more healthy relationships that will produce more productive members of society.

While I'm on the subject I also think that prostitution should be legalized. I think that it would be good for the people that work in the sex industry to regulate it (make it safer by keeping it out in the open and on the books), but I also think that many members of society would benefit from easy access to sex and that could result in less sex crime, and also expose more sex crime to the law. It might also help to restore a balance to the cost of pussy.

An excellent distinction to make. I don't know if it's just stoner paranoia or what, but I've found that since I've been using cannabis I find myself noticing subtle nuances that are significant that easily slip the mind on a daily basis and it's alarming. When I'm stoned paranoia often centers around major existential shit, like what if the idea that we know what we're doing and we're on a good path is just a delusion, and in reality we're really just as ignorant and stupid and primitive as our ancestors millions of years ago and our related species, pets, and wild animals today?

The way that I frame it is that I always had the impression throughout the public school system that the things we were taught were very carefully researched, studied, planned, and orchestrated, and basically assumed that the things we were taught and how we were taught them was backed by science. Because why the hell wouldn't you structure society that way?! It turns out that couldn't be further from the truth. Instead people with good social skills and appearance smile on a stage, convince enough of us to trust them with deciding what to do, and then these anybody's just do whatever the fuck they feel like without having to answer to anyone. What in the actual fuck guys?!