The estimated number of defensive uses even outweighs the criminal use of guns. From what I can find, the full report is behind a paywall, but it's easily found referenced by third parties:
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/15941-cdc-study-ordered-by-obama-contradicts-white-house-anti-gun-narrative

I'm not religious, but your atheist jab is dumb and unnecessary.

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If nobody owned guns, no one would need to own a gun to defend themself.

If people weren't stupid whores, nobody would need abortions.

If wages were fair unions wouldn't be necessary.

Etc...

People that are physically weak or not super proficient in self defense can justifiably need a weapon to protect themselves, even from an unarmed attacker. Even expert fighters will freely admit (and I've heard this in interviews) that they can't expect to reliably fend off a group of attackers with just their bare hands. You're thinking in idealistic terms instead of realistic ones.

If you can't keep the gun on you, you can't use it for self defense. Your argument seems to favor disallowing the people the means to protect themselves and forcing them to rely on government for protection, even though it cannot be fully counted on. I see this as immoral.

About half the USA disagrees with you. It's no less a human life just because it is inconvenient. I don't buy the argument that just because somebody would have a hard life, it's better for them to have never been allowed to live at all.

"It's CURRENT_YEAR" is not an argument.

Remember when this thread was about threads locking too soon?

Edgar took the point to a more extreme position than even you did. He said people don't need to have guns even in their own home. People shouldn't HAVE to have special protection, but the world isn't perfect. The reason some places are dangerous enough that people could need to carry weapons are because of too much crime and not enough policing in some areas of the country.

Of course some people have ailments or disabilities and won't have the needed mental or physical capability, but most people can be proficient with guns, all it takes is training.

We are capable of high level, rational thought. Mosquitos are pests that spread disease to hundreds of species. I used to kill spiders, but I don't bother with them anymore as there aren't any truly dangerous varieties of them where I live.

Biologically, when the sperm fertilizes an embryo. My pro-life stance is "pragmatic" enough that I don't abhor contraceptives because they still prevent the beginning of an actual pregnancy (the fertilized embryo implants into the uterus). The addition of special requirements to be considered life is foolish. Humans, as with many animals, require substantial care for years after they are born and are not capable of keeping themselves alive.

Aaron's got his tinfoil Russia hat. It's always fun to see crazy partisans.

I don't know about you, but the idea that people are walking around with concealed weapons bothers me. Piss off the wrong person, and BLAM, you're a goner. Background checks are not enough. Training is not enough. Why should I have to carry a gun around just to feel 'safe'? I've received death threats before, and they were by people who had easy access to guns, who said they were going to use one to kill me with. I was stalked and harassed. I never knew who did it, because they did it all under the cover of night. Nothing the police could do about it because I didn't know who it was for sure. I have a pretty damn good idea who was involved, but I couldn't prove anything. For years, I was afraid to leave the house. I was in a crippled mental state, living in fear. We own guns in our household, but what was I supposed to do? Start carrying a gun with me all the time, everywhere I go? That's no way to live.

The point is, I shouldn't have to worry about nutjobs with guns. And the only way to do that is to keep the guns out of their hands. And that means tighter controls on being able to own and carry firearms, and harsher penalties for those who commit crimes using guns. It means we need more resources to combat gangs and thugs. It means we need to do a better job patrolling our borders to keep illegal guns out of our country. At this point, I'm almost in favor of Trump's border wall.

The solution is less guns, not more.

Police do not prevent crime. They merely punish the few offenders they can catch. If you have a crime problem you cannot solve it with police. Police will just produce more crime because instead of rehabilitating people they ruin people's lives. And when your life is ruined there's not much point behaving after that. If society doesn't care about you anymore what reason do you have to care about society?

The reason there's a lot of crime in certain areas is poverty (or wealth, but that's a different kind of crime). America does not distribute its wealth fairly. Everybody knows that. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer. You can work hard, but you need to be wealthy already to be guaranteed a chance at success. Many people work hard and it gets them nowhere. The system isn't designed for every American to be able to get ahead. It doesn't work that away. It won't work that way in capitalism. It can't. One man's great success depends on 20 other men's exploitation.

America has the problem that there are more people able and willing to work than there are good jobs. A lot of places have that problem, but its exacerbated in America due to its geographical size, population, demographics, and history. We suffer some of that in Canada too, and its getting worse. I'm not quite sure why, but I'd be inclined to blame the government turning its back on Canadians to fatten its own pockets. Basically taking a page out of the American government's play book.

Make no mistake, you could quadruple the number of police, but the problem will just get worse. If you want to solve the crime problem you have to have compassion and be willing to help the people that are desperate enough to commit crime.

Most people don't have the time to be proficient with guns, can't afford the training (or the guns, or ammo, for that matter), and also don't care to. They just want to live peacefully, have families, and enjoy the bits of life that matter. Before you have children its easy to feel like you're just some kind of awesome soldier and all you need is guns and you can defend yourself from anything, but once you start considering having children that all changes. You realize just how fragile your family is and the last thing you want is to introduce any additional risk into the mix. The world you describe is a world where raising a family would be pretty risky. Families are so much more vulnerable.

You cannot possibly protect every member of your family at all times unless you keep them all locked in a box. And that's no way to live. About 15 years ago I would have sounded a lot like you. But then I grew up. I don't mean that condescendingly. We all experience life in different ways. What I came to realize is that ultimately what will make me happy is having a family, and if I were to hypothetically involve gunfights into the mix then it will end in one of two ways: either I kill the attacker, and his friends/family/gang will learn who I am and possibly seek revenge on me or my extended family so we're never safe, or I only scare/wound him and the attacker himself could eventually come back or get out of prison or call in a hit from prison and the same story. My family is not actually safe. Just because I happen to stop somebody once with a gun doesn't mean I'm safe forever. In fact, it could be just the start of my problems. I prefer to seek out a world in which I don't have to defend myself with a gun. A world in which nobody has reason to target my family. And try to rely on society to curb crime instead of violent police so that we can limit the number of families that do have to put up with that terror.

We are, but fetuses are not. Certainly there would be a point where the fetus begins to develop some kind of thought, but it's impossible to know when and how intelligent it gets. Nobody really remembers birth, and it usually takes a couple of years of development and nurture to achieve a level of recognizable intelligence. Ultimately, humans come into the world stupid, and intelligence develops over time. That's why we require approximately 20 years before we mature, whereas most other species mature in a matter of months or years. Intelligence takes time.

Many other animals appear capable of high level, rational thought. Whales, dolphins, elephants, dogs, crows, octopuses, etc. We don't seem to hesitate to kill them when the ends justify the means. Similarly, if it were a matter of terminating an animal pregnancy nobody would even question it.

How many times have you visited New Orleans?
How many times have you visited armed versus unarmed?
How many times have you used your gun in New Orleans for self-defense?

Women are not as capable as men are. I know, controversial! And yet, all sports competitions are separated because we ultimately know it's true. Guns will not equalize things. They make them worse. A few women might successfully fend of an attacker with a gun, but if they miss (and they're likely to because it's not a video game) they might just make matters worse.

Instead of expecting women to carry guns to protect themselves I have a crazy idea: maybe, just maybe, they should avoid going out alone and travel with friends or a man to protect them. I know, how condescending. I don't know about your female friends, but the ones I know are mostly still terrified of spiders, moths, bats, ...; pretty much anything that moves. Not unlike children. While I would encourage them all to escape from that bubble of irresponsibility, and endure training to overcome fears and realize their potential, I don't think many of them want to do that because they lose a lot of privileges that way.

Ultimately, their default gender role is to raise children and take care of the home. And there's nothing wrong with that. Many or most of them actually enjoy doing that. It's perhaps what most of them are best suited to do well.

Walking alone at night isn't even something that I'd take likely, even if I have a gun. Unless they have dreams of being Chuck Norris it's probably wiser to just avoid putting themselves into compromising positions. Stay in public areas in daylight, bring a friend with you, if something feels wrong get the Hell out of there as quickly as possible and call for help.

A gun can make things worse just as easily as it can make things go away. And like I said, if you actually connect the gun to a person your name will be public information for his friends or family to look up. If you think the witness protection program can keep every family in the nation anonymous and safe you're sadly mistaken.

What's really neat to see is reaction time simulations where people have to draw a gun and react to something on a projection screen. The vast majority of people cannot react in time to something bad, and often overreact to something innocent. Real life is not a movie. Nothing will teach that faster than actually going out and physically training.

And that's a risk that they're willing to take. From what I've heard, rape is a real threat where they're coming from as well so it's probably not a huge surprise when they hear it. If you really care about those girls' well-being though then you'll want to improve the living conditions and economy of Mexico so that they have a chance to live a comfortable life where they're born instead of enduring all of these unimaginable hardships for the chance to raise their children in America. The reason they try to get into America illegally is because the legal process is impractical for them. They wouldn't risk all of these hardships if it wasn't at least believed to be worth it. And there's no shortage of Americans that "made it" that were once illegal aliens. Which is proof that in some cases it can be worth it. There are probably also a lot of cases where it might not have been worth it, but then again things might not be so good where they're coming from either so it might have been worth a shot anyway.

I'm magical.

I said Republicans would make a 180, not pro-second-amendment advocates.

The the Republican party (not Republicans but the party itself) only has the interests of the very rich in mind. Wedge issues like abortion and guns energize and motivate its very reliable base to vote. But you're all voting against your own interests, unless you're rich.

For example, do you believe the recent tax bill helps or hurts the poor and middle class?

There's enough Republican wool over your eyes to make a sweater raynebc.

The tax cuts went to the ultra rich, who don't need any more money. The spending cuts went to the poorest of the poor. Taking away people's insurance. Retirement. Disability. Medicare. Medicaid. Social Security. The Republican party, led by Paul Ryan who wants to go out with a bang, are hell bent on destroying so called 'entitlement' programs. Because it's not like any of those people worked for their money. Or spent their lives unable to work due to disability, mental illness, sickness, etc. It's not like they're taking money away from people who are in the last decades of their lives and have no safety net or ability to work. Retirement comes later and later now. Retire at 70 if you're lucky. Because they were supposed to have taken care of their own savings when most people are lucky if they can even save anything at all.

Shame on you. It's a rotten shame.

As for so called biological life, when does a group of cells become considered a life? Plants are made of cells, but no one gives a shit when you kill a plant. They're alive, but no one has any qualms about killing them. :/ We cut down trees like grass. Who will fight for the right to their lives?

Okay, let's set aside plants for now and move on to the animal kingdom. We slaughter billions of animals raised in cages with literally shitty lives and no one gives a flying fuck. We all go on eating our chicken mcnuggets and our whopppers and God Forbid anyone take away anyone's BACON! I am sure you've eaten eggs before, that have been fertilized. You can tell cuz the baby chicky started to grow. I bet you didn't even flinch though.

What are humans that they are so much more precious than animals? Because we're capable of more? Animals are capable of thought. They have emotions. They experience fear. They don't want to die any more than we do. Humans think they're so fucking wonderful because they've built skyscrapers, and moved mountains with bulldozers, and even managed to get off the surface of this silly sphere. What's so special about that? That we've thrived off the backs of the rest of the inhabitants of the world? Why does that makes us special? Do you know what a parasite is? It thrives off its host to the point of killing it. It spreads until it can't spread anymore, leaving a wake of death. Human life is nothing more than a parasitic infection of the Earth.

And you're worried about killing a fucking fetus. That is barely alive, can't take care of itself, isn't capable of any thought that will ever be remembered, and is nothing more than a bunch of cells dividing mindlessly until it forms an actual living creature.

As for your 'everyone is safer with more guns' mentality, well NO they're NOT. I had easy access to a long barrel revolver after what happened to me, and there were times when I carried it with me when I was outdoors. But I wasn't in a good state of mind to be carrying a gun. I might have ended up shooting someone who was just being an idiot, who wasn't one of the people out to kill me. I was suffering from PTSD, and every little thing that happened triggered it again. I didn't leave the house for 6 years. I was paralyzed with fear, and crippled by thoughts of what might happen to me. My mind had turned on me, and it wasn't until those 6 years later that I was diagnosed with schizophrenia. I got on medication, and it cleared my thoughts, but had multiple problems of its own. It took years and years to get my medication sorted out so that I wasn't suffering from side effects. The only thing that helped was weed, but that has problems of its own too.

Anyway, long story short, it took me 10 years to put my life back together and start functioning normally again. So far nothing has happened, but I still don't want to have to carry around a fucking gun. Give me a phaser anyday. Set to disintegrate.

A society that needs its citizens to walk around carrying lethal weaponry should not be considered a society at all. Civilization indeed.

EDIT

We're speaking of the present, not ages past.

TL:DR; What a bunch of shaite.