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| What is Hypnosis? (i need YOUR OPINION) |
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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If he says he did on the forums here, is that good enough? |
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Matthew Leverton said: If he says he did on the forums here, is that good enough? If I say I gave you one million dollars on the forums here, is that good enough? -- |
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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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I wonder who's more hypnotized... the hypnotee who's thinks she was hypnotized by the hypnotist, or the hypnotist who thinks he hypnotized the hypnotee. I am not aware of any scientific evidence for hypnosis... so therefore, I have no informed opinion on it. "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18 |
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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said: I am not aware of any scientific evidence for hypnosis ... There will probably never be "scientific" evidence, admittedly. We can measure the state with equipment that monitors brainwave activity, but that's probably as close as you'll get. Thomas Fjellstrom said: Could you make my social phobia and "core beliefs" go away?
Core beliefs? Depending on what you mean, maybe yes, maybe no. Core values tend to be very ingrained, so usually no. Social phobia? Almost certainly, but it depends on the cause and on how badly you want to be rid of it. My training is less on the "hypnotize you and make you stop doing bad things" direct approach and more the "hypnotize you and figure out from your subconscious where the bad things came from, then resolve it" regression approach. Maybe you just don't like being social, I dunno. In any case though, it's likely to be a several-session fix so much as I'd love to relieve you of your money, you're probably better off looking for someone local instead of coming out here. -- |
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Thomas Fjellstrom said: If I say I gave you one million dollars on the forums here, is that good enough? If I can find somebody else to accept that as reality, then yes. ~ I would only be impressed with a hypnotist if he can hypnotize someone even if they are actively trying to avoid it and get them to do/stop doing whatever it is they need treatment for. Otherwise, to me, it's nothing more than a giant placebo effect. If seeing a hypnotist helps a person out, then good for him. But that doesn't scientifically validate anything other than that you are a self-selector who thought the treatment might help. As an analogy: people pray to all sorts of different gods and they all claim it helps; obviously not all (if any) of them can be right in that the supernatural is intervening on their behalf, but they all think it works because of that. I'd be interested in a test that randomly paired up legitimate (trained) hypnotists and con artists with people who did and did not believe in hypnosis. My hunch is that the results would show that the people who believed in it prior to the study would be more likely to report success, regardless of whether they got a con artist or not. |
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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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23yrold3yrold said: There will probably never be "scientific" evidence, admittedly.
The warning bells that rung in my head just now were louder than the real bells that one time when I was in a clocktower! If it's real, there will be scientific evidence for it... if it's not, there won't be. And "scientific"... please Matthew Leverton said: I'd be interested in a test that randomly paired up legitimate (trained) hypnotists and con artists with people who did and did not believe in hypnosis. My hunch is that the results would show that the people who believed in it prior to the study would be more likely to report success, regardless of whether they got a con artist or not. That seems to be a good experiment to start with. Except hypnotists will claim that the con artists are inadvertently doing real hypnotism. "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18 |
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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23yrold3yrold said: Core beliefs? Depending on what you mean, maybe yes, maybe no. Core values tend to be very ingrained, so usually no. Social phobia? Almost certainly, but it depends on the cause and on how badly you want to be rid of it. My training is less on the "hypnotize you and make you stop doing bad things" direct approach and more the "hypnotize you and figure out from your subconscious where the bad things came from, then resolve it" regression approach. Maybe you just don't like being social, I dunno. Ah, I was looking for the term "Core Values". Heard it in the CBT group I was in. The social phobia comes from my "Core Values". I've pretty much figured out why I am the way I am, I just don't have any clue on how to "fix" it (ie: get over my major malfunctions). Quote: In any case though, it's likely to be a several-session fix so much as I'd love to relieve you of your money, you're probably better off looking for someone local instead of coming out here Money? Booo. If I had any, maybe. -- |
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Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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People say you won't do anything you really don't want to do under hypnosis. What scares me is that people really do want to do things that are immoral or criminal, but won't do it because of self control. People don't need hypnosis to cheat on their better halves or to rob banks or to kill someone. I don't believe it's always black and white. For every rapist there might be [some_number] persons that barely manage to behave. How would hypnosis affect this segment of people? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said: If it's real, there will be scientific evidence for it ... I'm sure there will be at some point. There have been positive scientific experiments on it; does that count? I honestly don't care; the air quotes are there for a reason ... Quote: Except hypnotists will claim that the con artists are inadvertently doing real hypnotism.
And they are. See how tricky this can be? -- |
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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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23yrold3yrold said:
And they are. See how tricky this can be?
Compared to questions in real science, this is a cakewalk. I suspect that the lack of conclusive evidence for and against hypnotism comes from the trouble of precisely defining the what hypnotism is, and is not... without this, hypnotism is outside of science's realm of influence. I suspect hypnotists would like that to remain the case. Just watched Penn&Teller BS episode on hypnotism... good stuff XD "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18 |
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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said: I suspect that the lack of conclusive evidence for and against hypnotism comes from the trouble of precisely defining the what hypnotism is, and is not... without this, hypnotism is outside of science's realm of influence. Essentially true. I said as much in my first post. Quote: I suspect hypnotists would like that to remain the case. I'd love to know why you suspect that, since there would be no benefit to it being the case. Science's attempts to figure out hypnosis has led to some pretty stupid myths (eg: 40% of people can't be hypnotized, like they're missing the right half of their brain or something) so if science could stop screwing that up, that'd be pretty sweet. REVISION: Well before I waste time watching that episode, I did 30 seconds of googling ... lots of criticism over how inaccurate the show was and some comments by Wendi Friesen (who was on the show) about how they misrepresented almost everything she talked to them about. So ... I guess their show is well named? I'm sure truth makes for poor entertainment, wouldn't it? Since entertainers are all they are. -- |
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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SiegeLord said: Except hypnotists will claim that the con artists are inadvertently doing real hypnotism. Of course. In practice, it's quite simple to fudge the numbers. I can get a 90% success rate if I discredit everybody who I say isn't trying, or if I can define success in such a way that the person will basically agree no matter what happens. I just meant the study would be neat for the benefit of a skeptic like myself. |
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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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SiegeLord said: I suspect that the lack of conclusive evidence for and against hypnotism comes from the trouble of precisely defining the what hypnotism is, and is not... without this, hypnotism is outside of science's realm of influence.
Probably true. |
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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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23yrold3yrold said: Wendi Friesen Of course their show is entertainment... but I wouldn't go around defending her [1] [2][3]! It is undeniable that everyone on that episode (save for the guy that did the stage performance) was a quack. The proper defense of hypnotism from their criticism would be that they focused on the quacks and didn't interview the more reputable hypnotists... e.g. the hypnotherapists and such. "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18 |
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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said: Of course their show is entertainment... but I wouldn't go around defending her! Odd statement. So it's cool to misrepresent and lie about people on television? Quote: It is undeniable that everyone on that episode (save for the guy that did the stage performance) was a quack. This can probably be assumed without watching the show, I imagine. Quote: The proper defense of hypnotism from their criticism would be that they focused on the quacks and didn't interview the more reputable hypnotists... e.g. the hypnotherapists and such.
No, they could interview reputable hypnotherapists and still make them look like quacks. Personally, I just ignore them. It's Penn and Teller, ffs. -- |
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miran
Member #2,407
June 2002
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On Mythbusters they confirmed it. That's all I know. -- |
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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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23yrold3yrold said: So it's cool to misrepresent and lie about people on television? Why do you trust her and not Penn&Teller? I posted the links to her website which corroborate the claims she made on her show. Quote:
It's Penn and Teller, ffs. Sure, but I wouldn't go around trusting 100% the person who stands to lose financially if their business model is shown to be a lie. Penn&Teller could be 100% correct and she'd still claim they mis-represented her! Speaking of entertainment... you like to quote Mythbusters... 'cause they are so well known for being the paragon of science "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18 |
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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miran said: On Mythbusters they confirmed it. That's all I know. I saw an unimpressive Mythbusters stunt on Youtube where three people remembered a few things while hypnotized. That hardly confirms anything... I think people can generally recall things better when they are relaxed. There's a big jump between that and there being some sort of scientific proof that a hypnotist can help 90% of addicted smokers quit cold turkey. |
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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Quote: Why do you trust her and not Penn&Teller? It's more like we're talking about a subject I know enough about to smell their misrepresentation. I see your links and more than you, I read them. Everything she says is technically true, right down to the low percentage of success. SiegeLord said: Sure, but I wouldn't go around trusting 100% the person who stands to lose financially if their business model is shown to be a lie. I actually know a thing or two about Wendi Friesen's experience. My trust is placed on a lot more than you might be aware of. Either way, we'll both believe what we like at the end of the day. Quote: Speaking of entertainment... you like to quote Mythbusters... Not really. But I know other people do, so I'll speak at their level ... miran said: On Mythbusters they confirmed it. That's all I know.
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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She makes $1 million per year selling CDs that help men grow longer peepees. That's enough to discredit anything she says. Seriously, you believe any bit of that? I guess I'll have to write off everything you say on the subject as you are a complete quack. Congratulations Edgar, you have already been surpassed as the silliest Allegro.cc member! |
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Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Matthew Leverton said: Congratulations Edgar, you have already been surpassed as the silliest Allegro.cc member!
I'll drink to that. My Website! | EAGLE GUI Library Demos | My Deviant Art Gallery | Spiraloid Preview | A4 FontMaker | Skyline! (Missile Defense) Eagle and Allegro 5 binaries | Older Allegro 4 and 5 binaries | Allegro 5 compile guide |
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FMC
Member #4,431
March 2004
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Mhmm, i created this thread just to collect information on how was hypnosis commonly seen, but no harm can come from clarifying a few things: someone972 said: I'm probably completely wrong here, but I see it as a way to stimulate someone's memory by trying to put them in an imagined situation. I don't see it as controlling so much as trying to get someone to remember something by creating the same feelings and sensations as when the memory first occurred.
There is some truth to this, i'd say it's partially correct but it only sees one side of it. Elias said: Well, all I know about hypnosis is from movies and I doubt it really exists. At least in the ways depicted there - that is you tell someone to be sleepy and then give them some commands and they have to follow it no matter what (and aren't even aware of that themselves). Including impossible things like remembering some small detail from an event many years ago which they had already forgotten. Definetely not what you see in movies, but you CAN actually remember a lot more in hypnosis. Matthew Leverton said: I don't know how hypnosis is supposed to work, but I generally don't believe it's much more than a placebo effect. That's the whole point, the placebo effect works. It's a form of indirect suggestion that works wonders: Quote: Placebo analgesia is more likely to work the more severe the pain.[128] One study found that for postoperative pain following the extraction of the third molar, saline injected while telling the patient it was a powerful painkiller was as potent as a 6–8 mg dose of morphine.[119] Hypnosis is about using suggestion to a beneficial effect, it's all in your mind, but it works. SiegeLord said: I am not aware of any scientific evidence for hypnosis... so therefore, I have no informed opinion on it. There have been MANY scientific studies that have found evidence of brain changes attached to hypnotic phenomenon. Matthew Leverton said: I would only be impressed with a hypnotist if he can hypnotize someone even if they are actively trying to avoid it and get them to do/stop doing whatever it is they need treatment for. Even though there are a few techniques (mainly from NLP) to use "covert" hypnosis, it simply doesn't work that way. You HAVE to want to be hypnotized, it's more as if the hypnotist guides the client into self-hypnosis. Hope to have clarified few things. [edit] 23yrold3yrold said: Wow, someone else here knows who Milton Erickson is. Ever heard of Gerald Kein? He's continuing the work of Elman, i've found his course very good. [FMC Studios] - [Caries Field] - [Ctris] - [Pman] - [Chess for allegroites] |
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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FMC said: Hypnosis is about using suggestion to a beneficial effect, it's all in your mind, but it works. So do you believe that if you spend $50 on a CD, you can cure cancer, and make your penis bigger? Not everything is "all in your mind." If I cut off my arm, no hypnosis is going to help me grow back a new one. Why doesn't hypnosis help there? Because it's physically impossible. Just like wishing away cancer or thinking about getting a second penis. Sounds to me that hypnotists are just scammers: they take your money knowing full well that they cannot effect change. The thinking is basically, "Because I spent $100, I better change. Otherwise I wasted money." So guess what. I'll heal you in one session. You just have to be super gullible and have lots of money. I'll call it hypnosis, to make it sound legitimate. |
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FMC
Member #4,431
March 2004
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Matthew Leverton said: Not everything is "all in your mind." If I cut off my arm, no hypnosis is going to help me grow back a new one. Why doesn't hypnosis help there? Because it's physically impossible. Just like wishing away cancer or thinking about getting a second penis.
Uhm... who talked about growing an arm or curing cancer? Hypnosis is used with huge success in many things, from pain managment to curing depressions. I'll also post this link again, in case you missed it. [FMC Studios] - [Caries Field] - [Ctris] - [Pman] - [Chess for allegroites] |
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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FMC said: Uhm... who talked about growing an arm or curing cancer? The woman that Chris was defending makes millions of dollars selling CDs that help you enlarge your penis. If you can enlarge your penis, why cannot you grow a new limb? It seems like she should be driving hospitals out of business. Quote: Hypnosis is used with huge success in many things, from pain managment to curing depressions At this point, I equate hypnosis with bullshit. And I could swap out hypnosis with BS in the quoted sentence, and I'd agree with you. And yes, I think depressions can be all in the head, and if they are, all it takes is positive thinking to be "cured." I also think depressions can be from physical problems where positive thinking will not help. I believe you can trick people into all sorts of things. I can convince a child that I stole his nose and have him beg me to put it back on. From a practical standpoint, if you can trick somebody into quitting to smoke, then good for you. But let's not pretend there's anything scientific going on, other than you are taking advantage of somebody's gullibility. And because you are doing nothing, there's actually nothing physical that you can cure unless it is something imaginary or stress related. So again, from a purely pragmatic point, if you can help somebody by tricking them, then you can make the case for the ends justifying the means. |
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I'm a Dave Elman man myself ...