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America, what's the crack with cups
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Well, as long as the ratio is consistent, the ratios between ingredients will be the same and so the taste will be the same

But then you'd have to measure everything with pinches instead of some ingredients with pinches and other ingredients in (standard sized) cups.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Well, as long as the ratio is consistent, the ratios between ingredients will be the same and so the taste will be the same

Not necessarily; some things, such as caramel, don't work for any ingredient amounts other than the exact ones specified in the recipe.

--
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Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Not necessarily; some things, such as caramel, don't work for any ingredient amounts other than the exact ones specified in the recipe.

It's the ratio that is important. Think about it, if you take a recipe that is meant to serve five people, and you are serving ten people, you have to multiply the amount of all the ingredients by two. You'd end up with twice as much caramel, but the ratio would be the same, and so you would get the correct output.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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It's the ratio that is important.

The ratio of ingredients is one of the key factors in baking. The other is the ration between the surface area and the volume of the item being baked. There are other factors as well, such as whether the ingredients should be thoroughly mixed or just lightly combined, or how thoroughly you should beat substances like egg (which alters it's protein structure).

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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LennyLen said:

The ratio of ingredients is one of the key factors in baking.

The context was measuring out ingredients, so the ratio of ingredients was the only one of those things that really mattered to the discussion.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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The context was measuring out ingredients, so the ratio of ingredients was the only one of those things that really mattered to the discussion.

It is relevant. The post you were quoting was rebutting the statement that if you just keep the ratio the same, the taste will be the same. This is not true. If you double the ingredients of a cake recipe, keep the ratio intact, and then attempt to bake it, you will not end up with a cake that tastes like the original recipe.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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So use two cake pans ::)
Doubling the ingredients for rump roast wouldn't result in a mutant sized chunk of meat.
Or how about cupcakes? You know what cupcakes are, right? Donuts?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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So use two cake pans

I'm assuming you're not stupid enough to fail to grasp that I was making an example, yes?

Quote:

Doubling the ingredients for rump roast wouldn't result in a mutant sized chunk of meat.

Cooking a rump roast is not what one would generally consider to be baking.

Quote:

Or how about cupcakes? You know what cupcakes are, right? Donuts?

You live in America, land of the fat, where anything that can be oversized is. Yet do you ever wonder why you don't see cupcakes or donuts a foot in diameter?

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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LennyLen said:

Yet do you ever wonder why you don't see cupcakes or donuts a foot in diameter?

He means you increase the quantity of what your baking, not the size. Instead of baking six donuts, you bake a dozen.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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He means you increase the quantity of what your baking, not the size. Instead of baking six donuts, you bake a dozen.

Which has nothing to do with the question I asked him however. There are reasons you can only bake things up to a certain size in a regular oven/frier.

As I said, it was an example. We do know what an example is, don't we?

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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LennyLen said:

As I said, it was an example. We do know what an example is, don't we?

Well, if someone decides to double the ingredients for a cake, throw it all in a pan twice as large as the original recipe calls for, and expects it to come out the same, then that person shouldn't be cooking in the first place.

This thread is about various ways of measuring ingredients. It isn't about The Fine Art of Baking 101. I'm not even sure how we got onto the subject of baking in particular.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Context forced me to pull my last post. :P I agree with LennyLen that not all measurements in a recipe are relative to one another. There are more variables present. Cooking time/temperature are generally specific to the volume or mass of the food item so either those attributes need to stay approximately the same or the cooking time/temperature will need to be adjusted appropriately.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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bamccaig said:

Cooking time/temperature are generally specific to the volume or mass of the food item so either those attributes need to stay approximately the same or the cooking time/temperature will need to be adjusted appropriately.

No one is arguing that.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I think he was just pointing out that ratios (i.e., the relativity of measurements in a recipe) are not necessary absolutely related.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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bamccaig said:

I think he was just pointing out that ratios (i.e., the relativity of measurements in a recipe) are not necessary absolutely related.

If a recipe calls for one cup of flour and three cups of water, and you want to make twice as much of whatever the recipe is for, then you would use two cups of flour and six cups of water. Relatively, you are using one third the amount of flour as you are water.

No one said that you should then go on to make the final product twice as big. I realize that won't work. All that was said was that the ratio between how much of each ingredient you use needs to remain the same.

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Or how about cupcakes? You know what cupcakes are, right?

Is that what we in Europe call 2.37-dl-cake?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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To take it to excess, you should argue that you should use the standard "two cup" measuring cup.

And I just now noticed this:

BAF said:

Ah, you're following a recipe for salad? I just toss a bunch of veggies and whatever in until it looks like something I want to eat, and I eat it.

Rather like sculpting a hippopotamus by getting a big chunk of marble, and chiseling off whatever doesn't look like a hippopotamus?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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No one said that you should then go on to make the final product twice as big. I realize that won't work. All that was said was that the ratio between how much of each ingredient you use needs to remain the same.

I don't have anything to back it up (I'm not a cook, nor a scientist), but I'd be surprised if there were no recipes where that logic didn't apply. There are a lot of variables. I bet there are some recipes that won't work with more or less ingredients of the same ratio.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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No one said that you should then go on to make the final product twice as big.

For the last time: It was a fucking example!

No one is arguing that.

Your original statement implied that is was only the ratio that mattered. If this wasn't what you meant, then you expressed yourself poorly.

If a recipe calls for one cup of flour and three cups of water, and you want to make twice as much of whatever the recipe is for, then you would use two cups of flour and six cups of water. Relatively, you are using one third the amount of flour as you are water.

Not always true. You actually can bake a double sized cake. But you don't keep the ratio the same. You increase the ammount of ingredients that when heated together create carbon dioxide. This produces more gas in the cake which allows you to bake it to a greater size. The other ingredients stay at the same values. So, the ratios are not preserved.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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LennyLen said:

Your original statement implied that is was only the ratio that mattered. If this wasn't what you meant, then you expressed yourself poorly.

It's the only one that matters to this thread.

Also, my statement was a response to someone else who implied that some ingredients only work at a certain quantity, regardless of the ratio.

Quote:

For the last time: It was a fucking example!

It was a bad example.

Quote:

You increase the ammount of ingredients that when heated together create carbon dioxide. This produces more gas in the cake which allows you to bake it to a greater size. The other ingredients stay at the same values. So, the ratios are not preserved.

Does this result in a cake that tastes the same?

This entire argument is pointless to the topic of the thread, which was about the usefulness of various units of measurement (cups specifically) in relation to recipes.

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Why would you want a double sized cake with same amount of sugar and cocoa powder. A single piece of cake would have only half of the taste.

That said, I do believe you can't always double everything in the recipe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

Which reminds me of a story I read many, many years ago about the USSR/Communist system. A Polish (?) jam factory asked for the recipe for factory-made Russian jam. When they finally got the factory going, a quality-control inspector showed up. He samples the jam, and says "This is the best jam I've ever tasted! How did you make it so good?". The Polacks reply "I don't know what you're talking about! We just followed the recipe!".

The anti-Communist propaganda undercurrent was that since normal USSR factories were so habitually short of common supplies that the official USSR jam usually had two or three scarce ingredients left out altogether, that the Polish jam seemed like ambrosia in comparison.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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It's the only one that matters to this thread.

The thread had already gone of-topic by then.

Quote:

It was a bad example.

I disagree. It was a perfect example of the fact that ratio of ingredients is not the only factor in baking.

Quote:

Does this result in a cake that tastes the same?

If done correctly, yes. There are a few other tricks that bakers use as well, such as increasing the ammount of liquid that goes into oversized baking. This is to allow for drying out that occurs because the items need to be in the oven longer.

Why would you want a double sized cake with same amount of sugar and cocoa powder.

Well, yes, you would probably increase those ammounts as well, but not doubled, as the larger cake will be double the size, but not double the mass, as some of the size increase is due to more gas pockets.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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We will be discussing this at length at the AllegroChicagoCon tonight and come to a binding agreement.

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