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Forced into switching to Linux
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Using the GPL for a library is selfish. Why should everyone who uses your library be forced into using the GPL and giving away their own code for free as well? Some people value their time and effort, and justly expect to be compensated for it, so it's easy to see why people don't like the GPL and don't use GPL code.

The LGPL is at least reasonable enough to let people profit from their own work.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Some people value their time and effort, and justly expect to be compensated for it,

My understanding of the GPL is that it is a licensing infrastructure which is intended to facilitate communal code. Therefore, by developing GPL code, you justly expect to be compensated for it by means of subsequent code additions to the community.

No?

Nobody is telling anybody to develop GPL code. To me it's a statement, and it's not one that I would ever dream of opposing.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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Freedom is not to choose any license you want when using foreign code. If you think that you have a naive definition of freedom. Freedom does not mean you can do whatever you want, it means you can do whatever you want as long as you respect the freedom of others. You seem to be forgetting the second part all the time. If you can't take GPL code and put your own code under the GPL, then I would ask: What is restricting you to do that?

I don't think we need to turn this into a semantics argument, but let me just say this. If I write some code myself, I am free to choose whichever licence I like, and I can change my mind as about the licence whenever I like. But if I want to link my code to a GPL library, I must sacrifice my freedom of licence choice. To use the GPL library, my own work must be made GPL as well. It's a condition that gives me fewer options that I had before; and that is why I avoid GPL libraries.

I don't think this has anything to do with respecting the freedom of others. When I write software, I feel I have a personal right to grant or to withhold the source code. If I choose to release closed-source software, I'm not taking away anybody's freedom, but rather I'm just simply choosing not to grant users the right to use my source code.

You can use the word power if you prefer. Perhaps you and I don't share the same meaning of the word freedom but that's just something we have to work around. I don't think saying power instead of freedom is going to make things any clearer - because we probably have different ideas of what power means as well!

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axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

SiegeLord said:

As a user I feel shafted by the greedy developers that chose to close their sources indefinitely.

This has nothing to do with the GPL. If those programs' source was available for a price, would you be satisfied? I bet you wouldn't. You would complain that they are greedy.

How can you test it? Well, throw it against the wall, if it breaks it was an item. Your computer is an item, but software is not.

Your definition of item is arbitrary. In economics, an item is something that has value.

Quote:

Although we can give more or less precise answers to these questions we always encounter problems that cannot be answered clearly, even our laws sometimes seem to be uncertain over that.

When you use another person's work, you use another person's work. There is no confusion at all. Static or dynamic linking plays no role in this.

Freedom does not mean you can do whatever you want, it means you can do whatever you want as long as you respect the freedom of others.

How am I not respecting the freedom of others with other open-source licenses?

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

But if I want to link my code to a GPL library, I must sacrifice my freedom of licence choice. To use the GPL library, my own work must be made GPL as well.

Only the product as a whole must be GPL. You can always re-release your own code under a different license (you never gave up the copyright by releasing a copy of it under GPL, you just licensed it under the terms of the GPL). The fact that you released another version of it under GPL doesn't touch that at all. The already released version of your code would of course stay released. But if you make a change to your original code under some new license you could for example disallow the use of that change in the GPL version.

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I don't think this has anything to do with respecting the freedom of others.

Indeed. It has to do with protecting the freedom of the source code, not your or someone else's freedom. Open source code usually isn't something you write once and then it's finished and never needs an update or bug fix. But if you release it for example under the BSD license someone can fix a bug in it and never release the bug-fix (or worse, release that bug fix under a license which bars you from using the fix in your original version). The GPL (and also LGPL) prevent that by requiring you, as a clause in the license, to re-license any changes you make to the code back to the original. (The GPL in addition also asks you to release your whole project in which you use the GPL code as open source, but that's a separate clause.)

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Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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Elias said:

Only the product as a whole must be GPL. You can always re-release your own code under a different license

The lock-in I was talking about was due to linking to a GPL library. If I do that, then I cannot release my code under any other library (unless I rewrite it to not use the GPL component).

[edit]
Immediately after posting, I released what you meant. You meant (maybe) that I could release the just own parts of the project under a different licence, and then require that the user puts my part and the GPL part together themselves in order to use it. (¿is that what you meant?)

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Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Yes, or replace the calls to the GPL library with calls to another library.

(So essentially you would be dual-licensing it then... which of course can be complicated, like what if someone contributes code to the GPLed release but you want to use that contribution in your non-GPL release.)

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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axilmar said:

This has nothing to do with the GPL. If those programs' source was available for a price, would you be satisfied? I bet you wouldn't. You would complain that they are greedy.

Does it allow some users to fix the bugs in said software and redistribute the fixed binaries? If yes, then in principle it's ok, if far from ideal. For example, how would collaboration work in this framework? I can't think of a license you could put on that "code for a price" that would allow multiple developers to work on it. Also, what happens when the original code owner disappears? Or stops selling the code? It becomes the same kind of gamble that you take when you buy software in hopes of it becoming OSS in the future.

GPL ensures that the code remains available in perpetuity. It ensures that you never fall into a situation of "I want to fix this bug, but I can't because I don't have the source." I've yet to see an alternative that does the same.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I think when people use the GPL (especially for libraries), they do so because they feel like if somebody sells a product that uses their code, that they are somehow being taken advantage of. But if they knew how to sell their own GPL product, they would. So GPL becomes more of a "if I cannot make any money, then neither can you."

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In the early years (1984 to 1988), the GNU Project did not have a single license to cover all its software. What led Stallman to the creation of this copyleft license was his experience with James Gosling, creator of NeWs and the Java programming language, and UniPress, over Emacs. While Stallman created the first Emacs in 1975, Gosling wrote the first C-based Emacs (Gosling Emacs) running on Unix in 1982. Gosling initally allowed free distribution of the Gosling Emacs source code, which Stallman used in early 1985 in the first version (15.34) of GNU Emacs. Gosling later sold rights to Gosling Emacs to UniPress, and Gosling Emacs became UniPress Emacs. UniPress threatened Stallman to stop distributing the Gosling source code, and Stallman was forced to comply. He later replace these parts with his own code. (Emacs version 16.56). (See the Emacs Timeline) To prevent free code from being proprietarized in this manner in the future, Stallman invented the GPL. Detailed description of this event can be found in Stallman's 1986 speech at the Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden

[1]

So

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I'm not sure what you mean to imply by those quotes... My quote is simply in reference to why creators of libraries today might use the GPL. It has nothing to do with the initial reasoning by Stallman.

An interesting study would be to see which projects receive more support in terms of third party patches (particularly from these evil commercial enterprises)... LGPL+GPL or BSD+ZLIB+etc. If the numbers don't show that GPL gives any major advantage, then it's "real" purpose for existing is pointless.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Upon rethinking this I think Stallman was upset about the duplication of effort, not the fact that UniPress might have been making money off the code they bought. There was a thread a few years ago where someone was stupidly reimplementing line() for the Allegro library and everybody jeered him, but the Allegro license says "We trust you not to abuse our generosity." but the GPL doesn't have to trust the goodwill of someone looking to make a fast buck, it enforces it. Look at MS using the BSD stack for TCP/IP which replaced their own hopelessly broken code and (partially) using the profits from this improved implementation to do harm to the open source community. No, open source code isn't perfect, that's how people can tell MS is using the BSD stack, if you send it some particular packets it goes crazy in a particular way, but the BSD code is available for anyone to fix this problem if they can.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

van_houtte
Member #11,605
January 2010
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go back to using amigaos arthur

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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go back to using amigaos arthur

Why? There isn't room enough for both of us?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Mordredd
Member #5,291
December 2004
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I don't think we need to turn this into a semantics argument, but let me just say this. If I write some code myself, I am free to choose whichever licence I like, and I can change my mind as about the licence whenever I like. But if I want to link my code to a GPL library, I must sacrifice my freedom of licence choice. To use the GPL library, my own work must be made GPL as well. It's a condition that gives me fewer options that I had before; and that is why I avoid GPL libraries.I don't think this has anything to do with respecting the freedom of others.

See, the problem is you are mixing up contexts, shifting rules from one context where they are appropriate to another context in which they are not. As for yourself, in your private context, you can do whatever you like. Additionally, there is a public context in which freedom is ensured by certain principles.

On your own parcel of land you can park your car whereever you like. If you want to block your neighbour's car with yours, that's not okay. What do we learn? Parking your car everywhere is not okay, but would you say you feel supressed by your neighbour or the government? Still you surely live in a country where people are considered to be free. Freedom does not mean you can do whatever you like.

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When I write software, I feel I have a personal right to grant or to withhold the source code.

Yes, there are other "models" of people living together. You could simple buy your neighbour as a slave, then parking in front of his car would surely be okay. But that is not the concept of freedom.

Quote:

If I choose to release closed-source software, I'm not taking away anybody's freedom, but rather I'm just simply choosing not to grant users the right to use my source code.

You do, see what I have said above.

Quote:

You can use the word power if you prefer. Perhaps you and I don't share the same meaning of the word freedom but that's just something we have to work around. I don't think saying power instead of freedom is going to make things any clearer - because we probably have different ideas of what power means as well!

I prefer the word power here.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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You do, see what I have said above.

You have not given any reason as to why closed-source software takes away peoples freedom. You are saying something about slavery and parking cars, but I fail to see the relevance.

Do you seriously mean that the moment someone writes a piece of code, it belongs to everyone?

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

SiegeLord said:

Does it allow some users to fix the bugs in said software and redistribute the fixed binaries? If yes, then in principle it's ok, if far from ideal. For example, how would collaboration work in this framework? I can't think of a license you could put on that "code for a price" that would allow multiple developers to work on it.

Why not? you could modify the code, but then you would have to give it back to the owner, and then the owner would have to incorporate it in its product.

Quote:

Also, what happens when the original code owner disappears? Or stops selling the code? It becomes the same kind of gamble that you take when you buy software in hopes of it becoming OSS in the future.

The same thing that happens when the developers of open source software decide to abandon a project: the project dies, a replacement comes along. After all, when developers abandon a project, it's very hard for someone that hasn't worked on the source code of a project to start tinkering with it right away.

Quote:

GPL ensures that the code remains available in perpetuity. It ensures that you never fall into a situation of "I want to fix this bug, but I can't because I don't have the source." I've yet to see an alternative that does the same.

How important is this advantage realistically? to me, it is not realistic at all. The situation where a person finds a bug in a program and fixes it himself is extremely rare.

You do, see what I have said above.

You have a very strange definition of freedom. So, according to you, people should not have any rights to manage their creations as they like?

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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axilmar said:

the owner would have to incorporate it in its product.

Have to? What if he doesn't want to?

Quote:

The same thing that happens when the developers of open source software decide to abandon a project:

Not the same thing. When developers of an OSS project decide to abandon it, the source is still available for all of its users.

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the project dies, a replacement comes along

Some things, like games, do not have replacements. A clone or a remake is hardly a consolation to the person who has savegames from the original, or perhaps likes the original's aesthetics.

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After all, when developers abandon a project, it's very hard for someone that hasn't worked on the source code of a project to start tinkering with it right away.

Yeah, a few hours familiarising yourself with the code is generally required. I've done that before, and it's not that hard. This is especially easy if the code is written well.

Quote:

How important is this advantage realistically? to me, it is not realistic at all. The situation where a person finds a bug in a program and fixes it himself is extremely rare.

Of course it is, I wasn't talking about that situation however. The situation is not "one person finds the bug, one person fixes it". The situation is "one person finds the bug; N people confirm it, one other person within that N, or outside that N fixes it; everyone benefits from the fix." The second situation happens all the time.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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If you really want a bug in an open source project fixed, you can always pay some skilled developer to fix it. If it's an abandoned closed source program, you'll just have to live with it.

Mordredd
Member #5,291
December 2004
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The mass of ignorance muzzles me. I suggest you learn about a few basics, take a deep look in what the GPL says and then we can discuss again. I hate it to repeatedly answer on stupid questions/arguments (yes, they exist!). Most of them show you did not even take a quick look into the GPL.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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you did not even take a quick look into the GPL.

Exactly. We took a long hard look and found it to be detrimental to society. :-[

Mordredd
Member #5,291
December 2004
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Exactly. We took a long hard look and found it to be detrimental to society.

Look again.

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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See, the problem is you are mixing up contexts, shifting rules from one context where they are appropriate to another context in which they are not. As for yourself, in your private context, you can do whatever you like. Additionally, there is a public context in which freedom is ensured by certain principles.

What contexts was I mixing up? Where is your private vs. public argument coming from? I don't see what this stuff about cars and slaves has to do with what I said. I said that I prefer not to use GPL libraries because they restrict my choice of licence; how is what you said related?

The mass of ignorance muzzles me. I suggest you learn about a few basics, take a deep look in what the GPL says and then we can discuss again. I hate it to repeatedly answer on stupid questions/arguments (yes, they exist!). Most of them show you did not even take a quick look into the GPL.

I think it's pretty clear that most of us have read the GPL. Many of us (including me) have even used it. What ignorance are you talking about? Could you, for the benefit of us all, just specify one fact about the GPL that you think the rest of us don't understand?

From my point of view, your arguments seem to be based on personal ideals rather than on facts about the GPL; but yet you've come out and accused us of being ignorant, and of asking stupid questions. Please, so that we know what you're on about, give an example of a stupid question; and an example of ignorance.

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Mordredd
Member #5,291
December 2004
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As you wish, here are some examples of ignorance:

Freedom does not mean you can do whatever you want, it means you can do whatever you want as long as you respect the freedom of others.

I don't think we need to turn this into a semantics argument, but let me just say this.[...]

..followed by blah.

Then here:

Yes, there are other "models" of people living together. You could simple buy your neighbour as a slave, then parking in front of his car would surely be okay. But that is not the concept of freedom.

The analogy is - so obvious - that when not releasing your software as free software, you make other people dependent on you, giving up their usual rights they have. This was just a metaphor, of course it is. But you just said:

I don't see what this stuff about cars and slaves has to do with what I said. I said that I prefer not to use GPL libraries because they restrict my choice of licence; how is what you said related?

Let's go on here:

Quote:

What contexts was I mixing up? Where is your private vs. public argument coming from?

Public context and private context in which you act, so obvious.

I am stopping here, since I don't want to spend all my time with this, it gets slightly hilarous. I can't force you to see what you don't want to see.

edit:
Personal ideals? See here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNBMdDaYhZA

That's not me.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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I can't force you to see what you don't want to see.

You are confusing a discussion about opinions (which this is) with a discussion of facts (which this can never be, because the nature of this subject is subjective).

What you are saying also does not have anything to do with the GPL - only with your definition of freedom.

van_houtte
Member #11,605
January 2010
avatar

Jacob, let it put it plainly for you.

You are wrong and your opinions are worthless.

K THNX BYE

:)

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