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Forced into switching to Linux
Mordredd
Member #5,291
December 2004
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You are confusing a discussion about opinions (which this is) with a discussion of facts (which this can never be, because the nature of this subject is subjective).

I already mentioned that. There was a time in which the general opinion was that slavery is not a crime, for instance. Also, there was a time (and in many countries still is) where free speech is not a basic right. As for the young information technology scene I'd say we still live in the dark ages ;)

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What you are saying also does not have anything to do with the GPL - only with your definition of freedom.

The GPL is intended to support this kind of freedom. If you have another definition of freedom, of course it does not make much sense. So at first one has to decide what characterizes freedom has. Is it right to do whatever you want to do? Certainly not. To yourself you can do whatever you want, if you interact with others there must be a clear definition of what is allowed and what is not.

So, I say it's not okay to make the "end users" give up all their essentials rights (EULA). For second, I need to make sure that noone else can lever that out by doing that through a third person.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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So, I say it's not okay to make the "end users" give up all their essentials rights (EULA)

That is what is commonly known as a "straw man". The legality and morality of EULA's is an entirely different matter, which AFAIK has not been brought up until now.

Using BSD instead of GPL would for example not do anything of the sort ("force" end users to give up their freedom), while still giving developers the freedom to license their code in any way they wish.

The argument I'm putting forth is that GPL is viral and limits the freedom of developers. You are arguing that all code by default is public domain, and GPL just enforces that (or am I wrong?). We are obviously have dramatically different views on life and liberty in general, and thus any further discussion is an exercise in futility.

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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I already mentioned that. There was a time in which the general opinion was that slavery is not a crime, for instance. Also, there was a time (and in many countries still is) where free speech is not a basic right. As for the young information technology scene I'd say we still live in the dark ages

Your argument seems to go something like this: there was a time when a particular opinion was popular and now that opinion is no longer popular, therefore my opinion is right and yours is wrong.

It's a completely ridiculous argument; and your analogies are wholly disconnected from what we're talking about. For example, you keep talking about blocking your neighbour's car with your own. In that analogy, presumably what you mean is that your neighbour's right to use their own car is somehow akin to their right to use the source code of the computer program that you wrote for them. But let me put this to you: if I don't write any source code at all, then obviously no one can use the source code... but if I don't have a car, then the neighbour can still move their car.

Let me now pitch a car analogy that I think is more appropriate (but still pointless): Suppose I design a new kind of car, and I build a car factory, and the factory builds a bunch of these cars... and then I sell the cars, but I don't let anyone see the plans that I used to build the car. In this analogy, the car is the software, and the plans are the source code. — I think the take home message is that if there is something that is clear in the analogy which is not clear in the original, then there is probably something wrong with the analogy.

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Mordredd
Member #5,291
December 2004
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Suppose I design a new kind of car, and I build a car factory, and the factory builds a bunch of these cars... and then I sell the cars, but I don't let anyone see the plans that I used to build the car. In this analogy, the car is the software, and the plans are the source code. — I think the take home message is that if there is something that is clear in the analogy which is not clear in the original, then there is probably something wrong with the analogy.

If you don't write sourcecode (you don't have car) then you don't need the GPL and what you said is pontless. There is nothing wrong with it.

The problem with your analogy is that you define rules for material objects, for property. See the video I posted, I don't want to repeat that here again. You have to find an analogy that is on an ethical - not technical - level. Maybe that's why you confused things in my metaphor. I was not talking about slaves and cars, I was talking about how they act together, with emphasis on the act.

See what happens if you transfer rules in case they're not appropriate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

van_houtte
Member #11,605
January 2010
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axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

Let me now pitch a car analogy that I think is more appropriate (but still pointless): Suppose I design a new kind of car, and I build a car factory, and the factory builds a bunch of these cars... and then I sell the cars, but I don't let anyone see the plans that I used to build the car. In this analogy, the car is the software, and the plans are the source code.

Exactly the analogy I was thinking about: when we buy cars, do we also request the car's engineering blueprints? no, we don't. Then why are we so adamant in requesting the source code of a program?

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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axilmar said:

Exactly the analogy I was thinking about: when we buy cars, do we also request the car's engineering blueprints? no, we don't. Then why are we so adamant in requesting the source code of a program?

That's because they've refused to supply them for so long it's accepted as "normal". Independent auto repair technicians have been fighting to get repair info for years, especially with respect to computerized systems. The OEM's don't want to release the info partly so they get all the repair business, but mostly they're not in the repair business, they're trying to sell new cars. Fixing old cars is contrary to this goal.

[EDIT]

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

That's because they've refused to supply them for so long it's accepted as "normal".

Trying to protect one's business is normal. It's a fundamental right.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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axilmar said:

Trying to protect one's business is normal. It's a fundamental right.

Except when you take it to the extreme and screw over your customers, then you are violating their rights and yours is revoked.

An example where we should consider diminishing the rights of a business is demanding car designers give out their blueprints and specifications to help make repairing their cars easier and ensuring a safe and reliable ride for all drivers/passengers :) (And as Arthur Kalliokoski pointed out, this is contrary to their "right" to protect their business)

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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axilmar said:

Trying to protect one's business is normal. It's a fundamental right.

It is one of many so-called 'fundamental' rights, and in pretty much all interesting cases, at least two such rights conflict. Protecting one's business is OK as long as it doesn't violate anyone else's rights; in this case however, it does.
Also since the car manufacturer now has an unfair advantage over an independent garage owner, the market mechanisms that would otherwise lead to repairs at commodity price won't work anymore, leading to a situation where a select handful profits at the expense of the common good.

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Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

An example where we should consider diminishing the rights of a business is demanding car designers give out their blueprints and specifications to help make repairing their cars easier and ensuring a safe and reliable ride for all drivers/passengers

Since it cannot be ensured that those blueprints will not end up in the hands of competitors, not giving the designs of your products to 3rd parties is called 'protecting your business'.

Protecting one's business is OK as long as it doesn't violate anyone else's rights; in this case however, it does.

There is no right such as having access to the design blueprints of something you didn't make.

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Also since the car manufacturer now has an unfair advantage

What unfair advantage? making something and selling it is not unfair advantage. What would really be unfair is to share those designs you worked very hard on with people that hadn't worked on them.

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over an independent garage owner, the market mechanisms that would otherwise lead to repairs at commodity price won't work anymore, leading to a situation where a select handful profits at the expense of the common good.

Nice twisting of reality. Selling your own product and aftermarket services for it is not a monopoly.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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axilmar said:

There is no right such as having access to the design blueprints of something you didn't make.

Of course not. However, I believe that it is at least morally questionable to lock customers into your brand by preventing competitors from offering services for your product. You don't need the full stack of blueprints, but providing enough information so that someone else could perform repairs and servicing on your product should be the minimum.

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What unfair advantage? making something and selling it is not unfair advantage. What would really be unfair is to share those designs you worked very hard on with people that hadn't worked on them.

No, it's not. However, making something and then artificially preventing others from providing services for it is.

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Nice twisting of reality. Selling your own product and aftermarket services for it is not a monopoly.

If the Ford Motor Company (just an example) is the only competitor capable of repairing Ford cars, then that's a monopoly. If Ford locks you into buying service and repairs from authorized Ford dealers only, then your only choice would be to buy a different brand.
It's not a standalone monopoly, like if there were only one car brand period, and no other means of transportation available, but since buying a new car every time you are dissatisfied with the repairman is not feasible, it is still a local monopoly, with all the mechanisms this implies - customers cannot choose, consequently the market pressure goes down, which creates an imbalance up to the point where prices would become so unbearably high that people would in fact rather buy a new car than take it to that garage again, and at the same time, the monopolist can afford to deliver much lower quality, since there is no practical competition. Again, in the car example, the effects are somewhat alleviated because utterly bad service will hurt car sales, but they are still real.

It's in the same league as cellphone AC adaptors (using nonstandard connectors so you have to buy a 20$ one from the cellphone vendor instead of a 5$ generic one), printers (sold below production cost, just so you buy their insanely overpriced and completely incompatible ink cartridges), operating systems (apparently, it is currently practically impossible to buy a notebook PC without a windows licence) and a bunch of other crap.

Some of these have been outlawed in the EU recently, including cellphone adaptors (IIRC, these are now required to use a standard connector format), car electronics (specs for the diagnostics connector interface now have to be released so that anyone can at least read them out using off-the-shelf hardware), while others still flourish (ink cartridges, operating systems, etc.).

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Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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If the Ford Motor Company (just an example) is the only competitor capable of repairing Ford cars, then that's a monopoly

Ford motor company are also the only ones capable of building ford cards. Does that make them a monopoly?

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

However, I believe that it is at least morally questionable to lock customers into your brand by preventing competitors from offering services for your product.

Not offering your products' design blueprints to your competitors is not unethical. It's part of the competition. What is unethical is to try to expand your market share or keep competitors out by bribe or extortion.

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However, making something and then artificially preventing others from providing services for it is.

It's not. It's part of the competition.

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If the Ford Motor Company (just an example) is the only competitor capable of repairing Ford cars, then that's a monopoly.
> it is still a local monopoly

Your definition of monopoly is a tautology, and therefore it is wrong. You are essentially saying that when one sells product X, he is the only one selling product X. Well, duh. That's not a monopoly.

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customers cannot choose, consequently the market pressure goes down, which creates an imbalance up to the point where prices would become so unbearably high that people would in fact rather buy a new car than take it to that garage again, and at the same time, the monopolist can afford to deliver much lower quality, since there is no practical competition.

But there are many car brands. If you don't like Ford, choose another one.

Here in Greece, we have the concept of specialized shops with exclusive access to the technology of the car maker. For example, I own a Seat Ibiza, and I can repair it in any Seat-specialized repair shops. Doesn't that happen in USA?

Ford motor company are also the only ones capable of building ford cards. Does that make them a monopoly?

Good question. To what extend this logic goes? according to this logic, everything is a monopoly, and everyone should share his designs with everyone else.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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The wiki article mentioned how this was a non-issue...

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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axilmar said:

Since it cannot be ensured that those blueprints will not end up in the hands of competitors, not giving the designs of your products to 3rd parties is called 'protecting your business'.

And I already said that.
Additionally, I said that it might make sense to tread over your right to protect your business in order to improve public safety; In much the same way as the law forces you to wear a seatbelt, treading over your freedom of action, to reference another thread :).

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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axilmar said:

Your definition of monopoly is a tautology, and therefore it is wrong. You are essentially saying that when one sells product X, he is the only one selling product X. Well, duh. That's not a monopoly.

That's the very definition of a monopoly - a market with just one competitor.
The point is that it's not a monopoly that can be broken up by a new competitor. In a healthy market, a new competitor can enter and challenge an existing monopoly. If, however, a car manufacturer makes their cars so that they can't be repaired without their consent, then such a competitor can never get a meaningful chance.

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But there are many car brands. If you don't like Ford, choose another one.

I can, but only if I sell my car and buy a new one. This is usually a costly operation, so there's a punishment to switching. That's not a free market.

IIRC there are now laws in place to prevent this at least in the EU, so the entire example is pretty much moot.

Anyway; this has nothing to do with Free Software, and the analogy has long been over-stretched. On that topic, here's what I think:

  • I don't see anything immoral in a software author's right to control distribution of his/her work per se, but as it stands, I am convinced that the concept of intellectual property (and copyright in particular) needs some serious rethinking

  • I feel better about using a piece of software when I can access the source code; I don't necessarily have to read it myself, but if lots of people have, I find it easier to trust the software

  • in an ideal world, all software would be free for all to use and share, but this doesn't really go together well with a market economy

  • you can't force freedom upon anyone or anything

---
Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Since you haven't read the article:

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Consumer Reports has expressed skepticism about the proposed bill, noting that its analysis showed the problem affects a "minuscule 0.2 percent of auto-repair customers." Consumer Reports also noted that the ASA said the NASTF had "mostly filled the information gap."

In a letter requested by John Dingell, ranking member of the House Energy and Commerce committee, the FTC noted of 6,786 complaints relating to auto parts and repairs it had received between January 1, 1996 and May 16, 2006, only two complaints were relevant and there were "none relating to the inability of consumers or independent auto repair shops to acquire the equipment needed to repair cars."

The free market has a wonderful way of compensating for these kinds of things. If you make a car that only the dealer can fix at an expensive price, then nobody will buy them.

If there were only a single manufacturer of cars or they all conspired together, then it could be a problem. However, neither of those are true, so any legislation would be misguided and unnecessary.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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That's the very definition of a monopoly - a market with just one competitor.

The point is that it's not a monopoly that can be broken up by a new competitor. In a healthy market, a new competitor can enter and challenge an existing monopoly. If, however, a car manufacturer makes their cars so that they can't be repaired without their consent, then such a competitor can never get a meaningful chance.

The "ford car" is a product in the "car" market. You can always decide to go with another product. It seems to me that repair of a certain product isn't a separate product in a different market, just another part of the original product.

EDIT:

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in an ideal world, all software would be free for all to use and share

Why is that an ideal world? It sounds like a world where a few productive people will be taken advantaged of by a large number of less productive people, with no systems to stop the abusers.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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If there were only a single manufacturer of cars or they all conspired together, then it could be a problem. However, neither of those are true, so any legislation would be misguided and unnecessary.

I remember trying to use an OBD II diagnostic program on a laptop about ten years ago. It would work on Japanese imports, but not American or European cars due to taking advantage of some loophole in the OBD II spec.

This is similar to buying a Compaq desktop (at least many years ago). You couldn't buy a power supply (for instance) from anybody from except Compaq because it wouldn't fit. I had a 486 with another power supply setting on the table next to it because of this. Actually the computer I'm typing this in with is like that.

{"name":"604429","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/f\/3f524f645671f27cc692e1e70dc1f1a5.jpg","w":624,"h":463,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/f\/3f524f645671f27cc692e1e70dc1f1a5"}604429

The red circle surrounds the original piece of crap power supply.

The fan outside the case on the left is blowing on the video card. I need to shut it down and vacuum up all the dust it's collected on the carpet.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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Isn't that just a micro ATX PSU? ???

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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There weren't any on the shelf at the computer stores here, let alone a 500W model.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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The "ford car" is a product in the "car" market. You can always decide to go with another product. It seems to me that repair of a certain product isn't a separate product in a different market, just another part of the original product.

I disagree, but let's get back to software.

---
Me make music: Triofobie
---
"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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Getting back to software, one thing that I think is similarly unfair is that Blizzard has a complete monopoly on the lucrative World of Warcraft business. Maybe we need legislation to force Blizzard to make the WoW servers open source and available so that small WoW providers can compete without being at such a disadvantage.

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axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

That's the very definition of a monopoly - a market with just one competitor.

No, it is not a monopoly. You are twisting the definition of monopoly. A monopoly exists when there is only one manufacturer of a product kind. Ford has a lot of competition from other car makers, it's not a monopoly.

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I can, but only if I sell my car and buy a new one. This is usually a costly operation, so there's a punishment to switching. That's not a free market.

It was your mistake. You shouldn't have bought a car from a manufacturer that has costly repairs.

If I go buy a Ferrari, I cannot complain that each service costs 5000 dollars. I should have known better before buying such an expensive car.

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but as it stands, I am convinced that the concept of intellectual property (and copyright in particular) needs some serious rethinking

No, the concept of intellectual property doesn't need any rethinking. It's fine as it is.

The complaining about intellectual property has started the last few years because people are no longer free to pirate software and media as they did before that.

It's 100% hypocrisy from people.

They say they software's prices are too high, but instead of not buying the overpriced products, they pirate them.

They also say that piracy doesn't hurt anyone, because nothing is stolen, which is wrong: in economics, an item's value is not dependent on its physical form. An idea has value, and can be stolen, decreasing its value.

Getting back to software, one thing that I think is similarly unfair is that Blizzard has a complete monopoly on the lucrative World of Warcraft business. Maybe we need legislation to force Blizzard to make the WoW servers open source and available so that small WoW providers can compete without being at such a disadvantage.

In the same line of logic, people are not free to enter Tobias' house to sleep. He has a monopoly over his house. Perhaps we also need legislation that allows people to exercise their freedom to sleep in any house they want.



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