|
Bitcoin - P2P currency |
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
|
This is funny, bitcoins are starting to look like some sort of pyramid scheme, everyone is running these miners but nobody is actually spending them. --- |
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
|
I just wonder who the fool(s) is(are) that originally gave bitcoins value by backing them up with real money. I mean, who pays for useless cpu/gpu consumption anyway? "A fool and his money are soon parted." My Website! | EAGLE GUI Library Demos | My Deviant Art Gallery | Spiraloid Preview | A4 FontMaker | Skyline! (Missile Defense) Eagle and Allegro 5 binaries | Older Allegro 4 and 5 binaries | Allegro 5 compile guide |
ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
|
They're also backed with real services: I count probably around a 100 on that page. |
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
|
Right, but somebody had to give bitcoins actual value by backing them up with money or goods, and everyone who did that essentially gave away their money. My Website! | EAGLE GUI Library Demos | My Deviant Art Gallery | Spiraloid Preview | A4 FontMaker | Skyline! (Missile Defense) Eagle and Allegro 5 binaries | Older Allegro 4 and 5 binaries | Allegro 5 compile guide |
Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
|
The fools aren't the ones who were first to buy ... they are the ones who are last to buy. |
Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
|
Edgar Reynaldo said: Right, but somebody had to give bitcoins actual value by backing them up with money or goods, and everyone who did that essentially gave away their money. Some people would call it a risky investment I imagine it started with people trading work-time and things like steam games (buying as a gift to someone) on the bitcoin forum. Money is always a matter of trust.
|
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
|
Maybe what I said earlier was wrong. I guess a bitcoin is like a share of a stock. Someone initially said something along the lines of "I have 10000 bitcoins, and I will sell them for a dollar each," and so they made $10000 for nothing (because the earliest blocks were much easier to make). But the difference between a bitcoin and a stock share is that you don't really own anything with a bitcoin unless other people are willing to pay you for them. Is there a graph somewhere of the value of a bitcoin versus time? That might be interesting to see, especially whether they are being devalued as more blocks are discovered. My Website! | EAGLE GUI Library Demos | My Deviant Art Gallery | Spiraloid Preview | A4 FontMaker | Skyline! (Missile Defense) Eagle and Allegro 5 binaries | Older Allegro 4 and 5 binaries | Allegro 5 compile guide |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
|
It's really no different than two people deciding to trade work for beer... The only difference is that the bitcoins weren't purchased, but generated. However, they were generated over a long period of time at the expense of power and clock cycles, and limited in number, to prevent them being devalued by inflation. All it really takes to give something value is for two or more parties to agree to consider them valuable; therefore, they are willing to offer goods or services in exchange for that thing. Edgar Reynaldo said: But the difference between a bitcoin and a stock share is that you don't really own anything with a bitcoin unless other people are willing to pay you for them. How is that any different from a stock? -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
Elverion
Member #6,239
September 2005
|
There's a graph on Mt Gox. https://mtgox.com/trade/history -- |
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
|
bamccaig said: How is that any different from a stock? The difference is that if you own a stock share, you own a portion of the company. If you own a bitcoin, you only own what people are willing to give you for it. Of course with a stock you can only get what people are willing to pay you for it as well, but at least you own something tangible instead of something that is made up. My Website! | EAGLE GUI Library Demos | My Deviant Art Gallery | Spiraloid Preview | A4 FontMaker | Skyline! (Missile Defense) Eagle and Allegro 5 binaries | Older Allegro 4 and 5 binaries | Allegro 5 compile guide |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
|
Edgar Reynaldo said: The difference is that if you own a stock share, you own a portion of the company. If you own a bitcoin, you only own what people are willing to give you for it. Of course with a stock you can only get what people are willing to pay you for it as well, but at least you own something tangible instead of something that is made up. AFAIK, a stock is more or less a pretend stake in the company. The value comes from your ability to sell it (and to some extent, maybe having a say in how the company operates, but the majority of votes always seem to be owned by the monopoly guy anyway). The stock is only valuable because other people consider it valuable; presumably rich people that want a say in how the company operates, and smaller fish trying to make money off of those rich people competing for a bigger say. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
|
Edgar Reynaldo said: instead of something that is made up All money is made up. Assuming it is not possible to game the system, a bitcoin is as sound as any modern currency. The $100,000 you keep in your sock drawer as USD could be worth nothing tomorrow. |
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
|
Matthew Leverton said: All money is made up. Sure, but not all value is. If you own stock, you own a stake in buildings, equipment, inventory, customer base, so on... If you own a bitcoin, well, good for you. {"name":"603929","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/d\/3da15913f3133f5b503f6589e50074b2.png","w":654,"h":404,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/d\/3da15913f3133f5b503f6589e50074b2"} If you had bought in by October of last year, you could have made 10x your money back in February. I wonder what precipitated the large jump in perceived value over the last quarter and a half? My Website! | EAGLE GUI Library Demos | My Deviant Art Gallery | Spiraloid Preview | A4 FontMaker | Skyline! (Missile Defense) Eagle and Allegro 5 binaries | Older Allegro 4 and 5 binaries | Allegro 5 compile guide |
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
|
A bitcoin is a form of currency, or they're trying to be one anyhow. It is not stock. Period. Edit: Here, educate yourselves: How Stocks and the Stock Market Work Edit2: To summarize, if you own a share in a company, you own a percantage of that company, something tangible. So long as you own the shares, you get a percentage of that companies profits. If the company earns $7,500,000 and there are 10 shares, each share will get $7,500, paid out yearly. A bitcoin is only worth anything as currency if people are willing to trade goods in exchange for these. If someone offers me bitcoins for anything I wish to sell, I'll tell 'em where to shove 'em. --- |
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
|
[EDIT] Edgar Reynaldo said: "A fool and his money are soon parted." A fool and his money are soon partying. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003
|
For people concerned about disk-space and bandwidth usage, here is a passage from Satoshi's paper: Quote: Once the latest transaction in a coin is buried under enough blocks, the spent transactions before A block header with no transactions would be about 80 bytes. If we suppose blocks are Another interesting quote: Quote: The incentive may help encourage nodes to stay honest. If a greedy attacker is able to
|
weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
|
That last quote is indeed interesting. I think it is a very smart principle. References
|
ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
|
Edgar Reynaldo said: I just wonder who the fool(s) is(are) that originally gave bitcoins value by backing them up with real money. I mean, who pays for useless cpu/gpu consumption anyway? Maybe people who are tired of paying for useless paper bill manufacture by the state. |
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
|
The University of Texas just bought nearly 1.0x10^9 US dollars worth of gold bullion, quite possibly prompting other money managers to do the same. TFA states that there's 100 times as much "money" as there is gold in the world. The shit's gonna hit the fan now. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003
|
For those interested in how Bitcoin handles bugs in its code, this was a revealing incident in its recent past: In summary: Someone found an overflow bug in the code and used it to give themselves 184 billion BTC. The client was patched, the block chain forked, and eventually the "good" block chain overtook the bad one. That transaction, becoming invalid, was erased and most other valid transactions were incorporated into the good block chain.
|
ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
|
|
weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
|
Nice short term investment, Dustin! |
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
|
Well, if the price of gold is anu indication, you may soon find that bitcoins will soar in value as the US dollar collapses. People exchange their soon to be worthless cash for gold for a reason. --- |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
|
Neil Roy said: People exchange their soon to be worthless cash for gold for a reason. Gold currently has a similar problem. Its value is artificially inflated, and they don't actually have the amount of gold they've "sold" to people. Good luck collecting. If you have gold certificates, you're going to want to make sure you get them to give you the actual gold at some point, or your certificates will become more worthless than the currency you used to buy it. -- |
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
|
They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
|
|